Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Yesterday was opening day here in Indiana. My father and I hunt on 40 acres of swamp, corn, and clover. It has healthy deer population but the bucks usually don't get larger than 115-120". Usually we or the neighbors that hunt the adjoining property will shoot them. Over the past 3 years I have started to pass on the smaller bucks and wait for something around 100" or better but my dad would still shoot anything (except fawns) within range. This year I decided to shoot for a true P&Y buck. I begged my dad all summer to let the bucks walk. His philosophy is that if we don't shoot them our neighbors will so we won't get any big bucks anyway. Just before we went out last night I asked him again to let the young bucks walk and just wait for a doe. The evening ended with me only spotting a few young does 100 yds off. As I stopped by my dads stand to get him I see he is gutting a deer. To my horror is was a beautiful 1.5 yr old 7 pt. This deer already had a nice antlers for a young deer. Would have beautiful in 2 years. I was speechless and just kept on walking. I am never going to find a P&Y with him hunting around me.

Here is my question? I know that young bucks are driven off by the dominant does at some point in their life. Could this hopefully be one of those bucks that would have been driven off to find his own land in a few weeks? How old are the bucks when this usually happens?

Edited by - barile on 10/02/2002 11:37:46

Edited by - barile on 10/02/2002 12:30:21

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

No offense, but I think you seriously need to re evaluate what is more important to you, being respectful that your dad does not need big antlers to call a hunt a success, or you getting your name in the P&Y book. I would give my left leg to get my dad to bowhunt with me, perhaps you should be happy that you are blessed to have your dad as a hunting partner. Nothing is to stop you from finding your own land to hunt.

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

I can understand your concern for killing young buck, BUT what is more important bragging rights to a once and done trophy or a relationship with the one who brought you in to this world

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Thundergut/Cardeer

I am very grateful that I have been able to hunt with my father for the past 17 years. I don't care about getting my name into the book. I just want to have a nice large healthy heard that will produce big bucks. Culling 1.5 yr old 7pts is not going to cut it. If he doesn't care about the antlers then he should be respectful of me and shoot a doe. Where we hunt you could shoot a doe 2 of 5 times hunting. I busted my butt this summer planting 5 acres of clover and I pay the lease. I feel likes it's for nothing when young bucks are taken. Thundergut, if I could find a better place to hunt I would. We actually have about 20 acres 2 miles to the west we can hunt. Unfortunately that area usually only has small bucks.

By the way. Because he is my father I returned 10 minutes later (after I cooled down a little) and drug the deer out.

Edited by - barile on 10/02/2002 12:42:40

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Living in Indiana, He has already got his one buck. Now you can hunt the big one if you want. Enjoy the time in the woods together, cause once they get older they won't go anymore. Consider(sp) it a GOOD opening day.

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

You're Dad sounds like he is from the "old school" where you kill the first buck that shows up. I guess I'm lucky, my Dad has been practicing QDM for as long as I can remember. He will RARELY shoot a buck that is smaller than any of his previous bucks. I'm glad he passed that down to me as well. I just don't find it very satisfying to kill a small buck when I've got big bucks hanging on the wall. To me, passing on bucks that 90% of the hunters I know would kill is much more gratifying than actually killing the deer just to kill it. If I want meat, I shoot does.

Hunt the thickets

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Barile, I support you 100% in your frustration yet respect for your father. I think respect is a two-way street however, and I don't think that is the case in your situation. You pay the lease, you plant the plots, you do the work and all you can to improve the health of your surrounding herd soas to ensure quality hunting for quality animals for years and years to come and "old school" pops comes along, ignoring desperate pleas not to but goes ahead and shoots an immature buck that would have been majestic in a year or two. I've known only one situation personally where this was the case and unbelievable the father eventually came around and now takes a doe for meat and holds out for mature bucks to fill his buck tag. Hopefully, eventually the same will happen with your father.

Nevertheless, to answer your real question, from what I've read it is at 1.5 that bucks tend to head out to find new home ranges. However, those home ranges can be 20 miles or 2 miles away depending on a variety of factors such as terrain, population density, buck-doe ratio's etc. It is very possible that this buck could have already established his home range on your lease or that he would have never left or that he would have vanished forever in a few weeks. Hard tellin'. Keep doing what your doing and best of luck to you.

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Good for your dad! And good for you...he didn't shoot one of the large racked deer you're after. Bet then you'd REALLY have been ticked, huh? For the life of me, I'll never understand why antlers have become a prominant, often sole focus in hunting. It's as though many now hunt antlers, not deer. And for what? To feel they need to measure up to some arbitrary numbers printed in a document that appears to be a horrid tangle of legaleze? What ever happened to hunting for the love of the game, the serenity of the woods, and the comraderie of friends and family? Getting a deer with a nice rack is nice, but that's not what it's all about.

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

AK...holding out for and hunting a mature whitetail buck is the ultimate challenge and accomplishment in bowhunting. It exemplifies all that is needed to be a successful bowhunter...patience, talent, skills, knowledge, patience again, discipline, hard, hard work, and a litte bit of luck. Nobody I know puts their bucks in the actual PY book but only use that cutoff as a goal which to exceed. Some have their goals set even higher. It is not for the godforsaken book, it is for the ultimate challenge. As far as hunting for the serentiy of the woods, the comraderie of friends, and the love of the game...it's all there...nothing is lost, only gained. Perhaps you should try it.

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RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

Thanks Wolfen and Belle Island. I'm still frustrated but at least it is the only buck he can shoot this year (1 buck rule) and he got a clean shot. I just happened to be looking at some racks of bucks we had taken in the past before I started holding out for mature deer. Most of the bucks we shot back then were big bodied but small racks with small/short tines. I wouldn't have been upset had he shot an older mature 3+years deer with sub par antlers, but this was a beautiful young buck with enormous potential.

AK. I would have been happy as hell if he would have shot a 150" inch monster. Unfortutnately we will never have the opportunity to shoot one if the young bucks keep getting plucked off. I do hunt for the love of the game. To me hunting is not just shooting a deer. To me hunting is watching your game in their element and waiting for that perfect opportunity and take your game.

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

They are only antlers. The time spent in the field with family is much more important. He will not always be around for you to be mad at. Some day you will wish that he was there to shoot that 7 point. I understand your frustration but it seems very miss placed. If he is like my father I would not even be hunting if not for him.

That being said 40 acres is not going to hold a large enough deer population for a number of big bucks to hang out for. Don't worry about an occasional small buck being taken there will be others.

Ask your father if he gets more excitment out of shooting a buck than a doe and you will prob. find out he does and that is why he shoots the bucks. If that is the case he should take what he wants.

The food plots you have planted will have more to do with the quality of bucks in the area than passing them up. If you are getting big deer bodies and little antlers then they are missing something during the antler growing phase. Age alone won't make big antlers.

" Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad"

RE: Horrible opening day (Deer Mgmt question)
 

SW IA
I understand what you are saying about him not being around forever. It just pisses me off that he didn't even wait till the end of season. It was the first hunt of the year. In the past even if he was going to shoot a small one he would wait until later in the season to see if there was anything bigger around.

I think a lot of the small antlered bucks in the past were due to bad genetics. We use to usually see 1 large 120" buck a year and then all of the rest were the small racks I was speaking of. My father and I only used to hunt on weekend until last year. Our hunting land is 1 hour away from where we live and I played football throughout highschool and college so getting to the woods was difficult. The last 2 years I have been seeing bigger deer than ever before. I'm sure it's due to the fact that I'm in the woods more.

I know the land size is an issue. The 80 acres to the south is hunted by 2 guys that will only shoot bucks with antlers as wide as their ears. The 100 acres to the east we aren't sure about. The guys sold part of their land so they may not be able to hunt anymore. Between our property and the neighbors there is about 40 acres of thick swamp that is dang near un-huntable and another 20 acres to the north of me that is posted no hunting. This 60 acres is a great sanctuary that most of the deer bed in.

Robert. My neighbors may have shot that buck but that means there would be another that would be able to walk. Now that my dad shot this one the neighbors will have to take a different one. That means 2 dead as opposed to 1.