buckeye

In the new edition of Field & Stream there is an article about the "PA deer wars".

I don't understand how some PAn's could argue with RESULTS. Imo Gary Alt was the best thing to happen to Pa's deer huntingsince reintroduction in the 20's.

If Pa could have its way they would be back to "whacking and stacking" the spikes and annihilating the fork horns tomorrow.

My question is WHY?

Here is a graph F&S provided.... antler restrictions started in 2002-2003 season.

Season Antlerless harvest Antlered harvest % bucks over 21/2 years old

2001-2002 282,767 203,247 20%
2002-2003 352,113165,416 32%
2003-2004 322,620 142,270 44%
2004-2005 284,910 124,410 50%

SO, what is the problem PA? 50% of harvested bucks are 21/2 or older? That may be the highest ratio in the nation???

Please explain.....

rile1564

I'm wondering how they get that %. When any PA hunter harvests a buck, the age isn't asked nor told. We don't have check stations for buck. So I'm just wondering how they came up with that. I've accidentally taken a few deer that were under 2 1/2 years old. Just this year I took 2 button bucks (they were big so I figured they were doe). But they are tagged as antlerless. So I guess they didn't make it into this % of buck under 2 1/2. Also if you notice the # of buck taken each year is shrinking considerably. In the 2004-2005 season you'll notice that the least amount of deer were taken, buck and doe combined. From what I gather, because there are less deer being seen. Granted people are bitching but not because of the antler restriction (reason why olderbucks are being taken) but because of the lack of deer. It's the doe harvest people are complaining about the most. Luckily this year they decreased the # of tags.

Rick James

Fact is that PA hunting is MUCH better than a lot of the hunters will lead you to believe. There are areas that have had too many does taken but the majority of the state the hunting is still excellent. I had almost no time to scout PA last year when I hunted there and still managed to see 2 seperate 3 1/2 year bucks in a week of hunting. I have thousands of pics from my leaf river that will show you differentely as well.

PABowhntr

Why are people complaining? That is simple. They are accustomed to seeing many deer each time they go out hunting. Many hunters could care less about the size of a buck's rack if it means that they have to give up the number of deer that they typically see on an outing.

Personally I support the antler restrictions but agree that the doe license allocation needs to be more cleverly distributed based on whitetail populations over much smaller areas. Those WMUs are just too large to effectively manage the herd.

Bowtech9

It is nice to see big rack bucks but you can't eat the horns! I think every hunter wants to see deer when out in the woods and that is becoming a issue in some parts of PA but with effort, knowledge and time spent scouting you should be able to fill your tags.

adams

I've wondered the same question. Having grown up in a place with a density of less then 10 deer per sq mile I've learned to hunt where the deer are and know how to find those areas. Now take a hunter thats hunted 20-30 years with a deer denisity of 25-30 deer per square mile and try to tell those hunters they need to go look for deer. They're just not happy about it. The are forced to scoutand locate deer to be sucessful and if they can't develope the skills they will not fill tags.

I feel the same way. Should he wish to get back into the bussiness I'm love to see him hire on with Maine or New Hampshire. Although he's well known for "unpopular" management techniques in Pa he is also quite an accomplished biologist and has done extensive studies and work with black bears.

IMO, Alt would be an asset to any department he chooses towork for.

rybohunter

A good deal of PA hunters are rifle only and get a few days to hunt. There has beena long deep rooted tradition in this state of putting such a HUGE emphasis on getting a buck ANY buck. That's all people become obsessed with or care about.A guy could have killed 2 dozen spikes in his lifetime and the second he catches a glimpse of bone on #25 he's shooting. That's just how tradition is here. So take that, coupled with many guys being spoiled by seeing dozens of deer every time out....then fast forward to having to exhibit a hint of self control and seeing a few less(or alot less in some places) deer and you geta huge outcry.

Things could even be better if you asked me, there are still a lot of people who shoot and count points later on. I know my areas well and for the amount of sub-legal bucks there are, there should be a lot more nicer ones the following years. There ain't that many kids around to shoot them all.

Buck Magnet

Buckeye,

I love the antler restrictions, they have been long needed. Let the little guys grow and not only that, but it makes hunters take a better look at the deer before they shoot, this increases the safety of the woods.

Now, the doe herd reduction. I had been saying that it was a great thing and I still say that it WAS needed, but the amount of doe I have seen this year in all my scouting is shocking..... 1 doe. I have saw alot of bucks, but the does aren't around. I have got about 8 rolls of film off my game cam this spring and I have got 1 picture with a doe in it, the rest have all been bucks. Yeah, this may be awsome for hunting for a good buck, but what is it gonna do next year?

My problems really lies with the PGC and their claims of deer numbers. I have read that my area is supposed to still have between 30-35 dpsm and I dought that the number is over 20 dpsm! PA has over a million hunters and these guys are pretty much all able to get a doe tag. You put that many tags out into that many guys hands and they can do some serious damage to the herd, but the PGC refuses to see this. They are severly under-estimating the amount of doe that PA hunters can kill.

This year doe tags in my management unit were "cut back" by 2000 tags. My management unit is about half of one county and half of another and they were giving out 54,000 doe tags for this area. Cutting it back by 2,000 isn't gonna do a thing.

HuntingBry

Buckeye, I too don't know where they got those numbers because there is no way to accurately come to those figures. They are probably using the report cards that ask for the number of points on each side and assuming that the bigger deer are 2 1/2 years or older. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the antler restrictions. As Frank said though, the large WMAs and liberal antlerless tag numbers have taken a toll on heavily hunted land. I believe they should continue the direction they are going, but reduce the size of the WMAs to more effectively control the antlerless harvests in those areas.

BuckMagnet, I'm surprised your seeing that few doe in your area. I remember earlier you had guys jumping you in the northeast forum because you were saying that you weren't having problems seeing antlerless deer. What happened in your area?

Buck Magnet

HuntingBry,

I don't know what happened. I hadn't seen after rifle season, but I figured that like normal they were hiding low until spring. Well, spring has come and gone and I am not seeing many doe at all. The buck numbers I am seeing is un-real though.

There are several things that I think need done, smaller management units, more accurate harvest count, ect. I still stand by the fact that this state was severly over-populated, and I agreed in take the numbers down, but it just seems like the PGC is never gonna be satisfied. I think that we need to draw a line and say enough is enough, we have the perfect balance but from what I have heard, that isn't gonna happen. Look for even more herd reduction in the future!