Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I got the heads that Scott promised me in the mail today.

Initially the blades could be a bit sharper. I only shot them for accuracy as I do not have the place to do any testing like 5 shot does. Anyway they grouped very tight and are an accurate head. I managed to cut a few vanes at 20 yards and ended up bending a blade on one of the heads as it got struck from another head inside the target. The aerofoil design certainly does keep the spinning after they enter the target.

I have two complaints about the heads. #1) the blades definetly need to be sharper. #2) the heads make a noticible hissing sound flying through the air.

The furrell is like a 6 bladed muzzy would be except that the main blade actually wraps around the inside of the furrel and comes back out the slot next to it for the smaller blades. If you can picture this, the six blades are actually only three pieces of steel that make a u-turn inside the furrel to form two separate blades. The tip is essentially just like a Muzzy tip.

5 Shot I will be sending you two heads, if you still haven' t gotten any yourself, so can put them through their paces. One of them has been shot into a layerd foam target and the other is new. I wanted you to be able to judge the blade sharpness yourself. I' ll mark them so you will know the difference.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Bigbulls, thanks for the initial report. I was wondering about the blades. I sort of thought it would end up being as you described. That would be a good way to secure the blades and still get a secure 6 blade head. I look foward to testing them and I really appreciate you sending the heads.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

So let me ask you two this....do you think the blades induce enough spin on their own so that the arrow could be equipped with straight vanes?

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

bigbulls, I never knew that Muzzy made a six bladed head.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I e-mailed Scott about the sharpness and the noise and he told me that the sample heads had hand made blades on them and that the actual production heads would be a lot sharper. He also said the noise I was hearing was due to the heads spinning the shaft faster than the fletchings normally would. That might be true cause as I pulled the arrow out of the target there was considerable spin of the arrow as it continued in the target. That is exactly what the directions tell you to use and reccomend against helical and offset vanes. They reccomend a straight 3" vane or feather.They don' t, I said they are like a 6 blade muzzy would be...

I' m going to shoot a couple on a bare shaft and see how they do. OK, You definetly still need some vanes on the back to keep the arrow going straight but the noise was gone without any vanes on the back of the arrow. And they do still spin the arrow without any vanes.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

If you are looking for a good 6 mlade head the GKF Dead Heads are good ones.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

So would it be a safe assumption that a straight vane that has some stiffness,like Flex Fletch, wouldn' t produce as much noise as an AAE vane or Duravane.

I am really liking the broadheads but I CAN' T live with noise coming from my arrows.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Thanks Big, actually I just bought a dozen of them last December (six bladed GKF). I have not used them yet. But plan to this year.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I just checked their web site. At first I laughed, then I saw this:

Talk about irresponsible marketing! Sorry, but telling people they don' t have to tune their bows always hacks me off. [:@]

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

JRW,they didn' t say not to tune your BOW they said you don' t have to tune the broadheads.Things like indicating them on the shafts and re papering or whatever your choice of tuning is.They also didn' t say not to check them to see if they are tuned they just said it wasn' t going to need tuning.It is up to the individual to check and see if the bow and arrows are still tuned with each other.

I quess they are assuming that a responsible hunter has already got his bow tuned and the broadhead isn' t going to change anything.


Just my take on it.;)

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

The letter and the directions they sent me say:

" We reccomend that you tune your bow with 100 grain field points first, then unscrew those and screw on tallons and shoot. Please note that they will group just as the 100 grain field points."

I have been reading on some of the other forums and all of the reports so far are these heads are doing exactly as they claim. One person even said they didn' t make a better mouse trap they reinvented the wheel.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I once read on the internet where a guy said shooting a deer up the rear end was a good idea too. ;)

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

JRW, I really could care less if you used these heads or not I am simply telling you what people that have been shooting them are saying. Don' t get upset with me if the manufacturers claims so far seem to be justified.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Um, no one' s getting upset there Chief. I' m just having fun laughing about these goofy-a$$ed things. I always get a good chuckle out of some of the kitch that hits the market every year. It reinforces my belief in the wisdom of P.T. Barnum. :D

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Sorry, I' m a little under the weather and a little cranky.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

JRW.What is it about the heads that would make a sucker for wanting to use them.

If they shoot better than other broadheads.They seem to do that by all the individuall and expert accounts I' ve seen.



If they penetrate as well if not better than other broadheads.They seem to do this also from all accounts I' ve seen.




The only question left in my mind is will they hold up.I havn' t seen anyone address that yet.That is why we are getting all the info we can.


I am not going to buy a gimmick head(especially at these prices)unless they work.


If they work,it would be nice to have fixed heads that fly 40 yards accurately without worrying about the affects of wind or other factors.


Remember,most of what we use today in archery,hunting or even everyday life was once considered a gimmick.


There sales pitches are out there but a broadhead that spins the arrow from the front is just flat out going to be more forgiving.There is no getting around that fact.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I' ll stick to regular broadheads & offset or helical fletching. This design just dosn' t do anything for me & i would be willing to say they will end up being a fad.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Well the heads are on their way to 5 Shot so we will see how they hold up here real soon. They are accurate though.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I don' t think they will like the steel drum test.[8D]I would be more interested on how they do on the more moderate tests.I am patiently waiting to see how they stack up against others in the toughness department.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I' ll adressit Tfox. I talked to them a great deal at the ATA show and I do have some concerns about the head. This head seems to be just designed for flight. It may well indeed fly better than any other head out there,But! I have done a great deal of Broadhead testing, it is some what different than 5shots and I have had problems with the edge strength on some heads using 420 stainless at a lower hardness. 420 is not a bad steel to use it just needs a slightly higher hardness than 440 for edge strength. From talking with the designer at the show, the Crimson Talon has the lowest hardness in the industry for a fixed head. Soon as I get some I will test them and get an exact number, but from what they have said it is almost at half the hardness of those that successfully maintain the integrity of their blade edge while penetrating the ribcage of an animal.

The majority of heads need to be tested before use by independant sources. I believe this to be paramont for this head. Talking to them at the show threw up allot of red flags for me and I do not believe it will stand up to 5shot' s testing or mine. On that I would recommend they not be used on anything larger than a medium sized deer until you hear other wise from 5shot or another independant source. I have been some what quiet about the research I have been doing the past couple of years, mainly just to wait till answers present themselves with supportive data and ample sample sizes, but to not express my concerns about this broadheads function during penetration would be a disservice. Please do not judge broadheads on flight alone.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Alaskanlarge,you must have gotten your info from them directly as to what kind of stainless they use.I like 440 as well at around 54-56 rc for knifes.How hard are the blades on the Talons?If you get above the 56 rc mark they will be way too brittle.I would guess that they are around the 42-46 rc mark to allow them to flex as they are claiming.I am not sure how hard most manufactuers like to have the blades,there is a certain amount of flex that is needed.There is a balancing act between toughness and flex and blade sharpness that must be achieved.To clarify,toughness is not hardness.


I agree,the heads look like their main concern is flight but that is the most important factor.You must hit the target before you can penetrate it.The toughness is the last factor.Don' t get me wrong,I think a head should achieve all 3 equally as well.


I also have some doubts as to their toughness.If they test well,I will not be afraid to use them.They don' t have to hold up well to a steel drum,in my mind,to test well. If they fly good and hit where they are supposed to,then the toghness is a moot point.I wish they always hit where we wanted them to.:eek:;)

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Yes I talked with them directly. The majority of broadhead blades on the market can not be tested on the C scale. The blades are to thin and you will get full penetration of the diamond and be testing the hardness of the anvil under it. C scale numbers should not be used for broadhead blades. You will find the hardest 420 blades at 76-79 on the A scale, 50-54 approx on the C scale. Their estimaton on the Crimson Talon was 30-34 on the C scale, which would look higher around 64-67 on the A scale. I would wager trying to test such a thin blade that is so soft is going to be hard and I have found most blades in the industry to be softer than advertised. The A scale uses much smaller increments as well in measuring, but is more accurate in finding the hardness of broadhead blades. Judging it from other heads I have tested, I don' t see it holding its edge very well, if at all on larger big game. Hence the recommendation not to use it on larger than medium size deer. If it doesn' t hold its edge on impact it' s like shooting a dull head. IMHO


Also do to the manner in which the tip is attached with the increase in the number of slots in the ferrule increases it' s flexability, which would increase movement in the ferrule on impacts where a great deal of energy is transfered (such as in the ribs of heavier animals) increasing the percentage of failure in tip attachment. True I havent tested it yet but by design I see it weaker than most when compared to impact on game animals.

So I have a second recommendation. 5Shot sould wear a welders apron and saftey goggles when testing this head.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

30-34 doesn' t sound very promising.I don' t think that would hold an edge worth a darn.I can see them flexing but not returning to it' s original shape after hard cotact.I would think you would need more hardness than that to have it actually flex back to it' s original shape.


There is someone on another site that claims he knows someone that killed 2 Buffalo with one shot with these things.Not a full passthru on the 2nd but that is good penetration if it' s true.He did not mention what it looked like afterwards though.


This is just the kind of info I have been wanting.Can' t wait for 5 shots test.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

It looks like they fail miserably in the penetration and toughness department.I was just over at Archery Talk on the bowhunting forum and mobowhunter did a test of them with telephone books and shoulder blade hits and he destroyed the heads.


He did say they flew good out to 80 yards but they aren' t going to hold up or penetrate.


Looks like they need to keep trying but it looks like they might be on the right track.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I' m not suprized.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Man I really can' t wait to test them now! These have to be the most talked about heads this year. It' s not sounding to promising though. Bigbulls thanks again for sending the heads, I think alot of people owe you bigtime, myself included.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Just curious


Does anyone think that an arrow that is spinning TOO fast could lose penetration due to it' s need to stop spinning before it can begin a clean cutting straight line??


Could too much spin be a bad thing???

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

These heads along with the GKF dead heads keep spinning after they enter the target. They do not need to stop spinning. The only reason other heads stop spinning is that their blades are straight.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I have never witnessed " to much spinning" to be an issue. Any loss in penetration would be negligible in my opinion. The spin obviously is in reaction to the air flowing over the helical fletchings, it is not being driven from a constant power source like a motor. Therefore it takes very little force to stop the spin.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

I agree with Bigbulls on this.


I have had a bad experience with blades that were straight spinning too much.I had a Thunderhead get twisted to look like spin wing vanes when they caught a shoulder I believe that it caught the edge.The arrow stopped dead at that point.I never found that deer and From where it looked like the arrow penetrated.I believe that If I had an exit wound that tracking would have been no problem.I found the arrow about 50 yards after I started tracking.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

TFOX,

You asked me a series of questions on May 10th. Sorry, but I haven;t been back to this thread to see them until now. However, I think you' ve answered them already. ;)

Sometimes, a new product reall is a great thing. Other times, it' s just another cheap gimmick that' ll fall by the side like so many others in the past. Consider these silly things firmly in the latter.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Wouldn' t it take a tremendous amount of energy for the arrow to keep spinning once it entered the target?? How do you know it keeps spinning??


Unless the spinning is being driven by a constant force I would think any spinning would stop immediately when the head first sinks in.


So are you saying that these heads will actually be spinning like a drill bit all the way through a deer' s chest cavity?? Obviously not at the same speed but you know what I mean.


Interesting

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Yes. I have shot the tallons and the deadheads and they both continue to spin after they have enterd the target. A lot of the mechanicals with the offset blades will continue to spin inside a terget as well.

Think of a boat prop being dropped in the water by itself. I will spin as it falls through the water.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

JRW

I will admit that these heads seem to be failing in the toughness department.I had suspected that they might.That is why I have been trying to find out as much as possible before my hard earned money gets spent on them.


I do not feel that a person is a sucker for wanting a broadhead that is as easy to tune as a field point.


These heads have a really good idea going but they seem to need some refinement and some tougher materials.Then I think they will be awesome but they are not there yet.


How many thought that the limb savers were a gimmick in the begining and how many people have them on their bows now.They were junk in the begining but have improved there material and design and now the things are holding up great.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

But the water is acting as the actual force spinning the blades..........a target or an animal will present friction and a resistive force.


I see a better analogy as a corkscrew vs a nail............much less force to push a nail through a cork then it takes to manually twist and turn the cork screw due to less area of resistence.


I am just having a tough time visualizing how it can possibly keep spinning once the head sinks in.

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

Atlasman, Try a Spitfire 3 blade this coming season and you' ll see what some spinning action is (with no doubt)!! It' s an awesome sight .......should be to you particularly based on your signature picture !! :D

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

TFOX,

Like I said...

RE: Crimson tallons initial report.
 

They do not spin that fast. It is something like one turn in 20" or even slower than that. How wide is the deer' s body?