Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
11-25-2007, 08:05 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
A buddy of mine, whom I got all outfitted for bow hunting only about six weeks ago, shot his first archery buck tonight (first archery anything). From a 15' treestand at about 25 yards, he attempted to shoot the buck right behind the shoulder. It reacted to the string by lurching forward - and resulted in the arrow hitting a few inches behind the last rib and coming out just in front the back leg. Called me on his cell. I got therebefore dark with my Gerber Carnivore light. While we were debating about whether to just wait until morning, his dad found the blood soaked arrow in the field, started following a pretty significant blood trail - and found the buck only about 50yards into the thicket to the west. I almost couldn't believe it. That deer lost about agallon of blood from that nasty 2" hole and expired within maybe three seconds. Wow!
11-25-2007, 08:11 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
THAT's precisely why I am using it........what makes it the possibly the best "Bad hit broadhead" makes it even that much more effective where it belongs.
If we all agree that ANY good broadhead works when placed precisely, then its the performance on bad hits (and the MAJORITY of bad hits, guts, liver, one lung etc) that dictate which heads are superior.
That is exactly my philosophy in chosing a broadhead.
If we all agree that ANY good broadhead works when placed precisely, then its the performance on bad hits (and the MAJORITY of bad hits, guts, liver, one lung etc) that dictate which heads are superior.
That is exactly my philosophy in chosing a broadhead.
11-26-2007, 12:35 PM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
THAT's precisely why I am using it........what makes it the possibly the best "Bad hit broadhead" makes it even that much more effective where it belongs.
If we all agree that ANY good broadhead works when placed precisely, then its the performance on bad hits (and the MAJORITY of bad hits, guts, liver, one lung etc) that dictate which heads are superior.
That is exactly my philosophy in chosing a broadhead.
THAT's precisely why I am using it........what makes it the possibly the best "Bad hit broadhead" makes it even that much more effective where it belongs.
If we all agree that ANY good broadhead works when placed precisely, then its the performance on bad hits (and the MAJORITY of bad hits, guts, liver, one lung etc) that dictate which heads are superior.
That is exactly my philosophy in chosing a broadhead.
11-26-2007, 01:03 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cenral Illinois
Posts: 3,180
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
The only thing I fear with these heads is that they are used a band-aid for poor shooting. "Best Bad Hit Broadhead" IMO is a horrible advertising tool. I've heard it on TV too from guys who make bad shots then find the deer. THere are enough idiots out there flinging arrows, there doesn't need to be more of this going on because the head supposedly kills wherever it hits.
11-26-2007, 03:46 PM
#5
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 828
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
O.K., I'll play devil's advocate:
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
11-26-2007, 05:01 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
It's never a perfect world, is it. I have done the hard quartering shot with a Rage and it bored through amazingly well - right up until it hit big bone in the opposite shoulder, where it deflected about 20 degrees upward. Had already done its "work" by then, though, and that deer onlywent about 60 yards.
One other concern I have would be the scenario where the head contactsa weed or a twig on its way to the animal. This head will open going through a piece of typing paper, so my guess is that it will open up (maybe only one blade) and then start planing off. A fixed head would be a lotmore likely to spell success under these circumstances.
Bottom line is that these heads need a lot more testing. And I plan to be out in the woods as much as possible testing them
One other concern I have would be the scenario where the head contactsa weed or a twig on its way to the animal. This head will open going through a piece of typing paper, so my guess is that it will open up (maybe only one blade) and then start planing off. A fixed head would be a lotmore likely to spell success under these circumstances.
Bottom line is that these heads need a lot more testing. And I plan to be out in the woods as much as possible testing them
11-26-2007, 05:30 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
ORIGINAL: Doegirl75
O.K., I'll play devil's advocate:
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
O.K., I'll play devil's advocate:
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
1. IMO The scapula is a "Bad hit" that is the exception rather than the rule most often hit by people using a POOR SHOT SELECTION as in a quartering to steep angled shot.
The outer rearward "Paddle" edge of the shoulder blade really isn't that tough but the real broadhead stopper is the anterior ridge that provides the point of attachment for the shoulder muscles. This is a really thick area that no broadhead is going to do well on and to be quite honest is so off course with where you should be shooting that its almost in a non-vital region of the body. I'll say it again, BONE CRUSHING is the most overrated marketing tool that a broadhead company can use. There is far more soft tissue and ribcage that covers the vital organs than heavy bone. The only 'Heavy Bone" you should even consider is the one area of the shoulder blade and if you are hitting that consistently enough to be a concern then rethink your shot angles.
As for the spine? IMO any broadhead can and will shatter the spine without much problem if a deer ducks etc. I have completely exploded the spinal column on a few mature bucks with even superlight broadheads like the Rocket "Miniblaster 75gr.
If your worried about the heavy forelegbone? Again rethink what shots you are taking because it should never come into play unless you smack it on the way OUT.
Just look at a deer's anatomy........look at all the area in the chest all the way back to the femoral aretery in the hind quarters. There is no need for a "Bone Crushing" broadhead. NONE. Again you are FAR more likely under proper shooting angles to encounter a 1 lung, liver, stomach , kidney or other hit where you really should hope your broadhead is reaching out and hitting as many vessels and organs as possible as well as providing the best entry and exit holes it can to aid in recovery.
2.??? I haven't really played with it enough to get a feel for what KE and momentum levels should work with this head cleanly and consistently in the body cavity of a deer? I would probablyERR on the mid to high side for KE, (60 ft lbs and above if I had to throw out a number.)
It does open quickly and with what seems like zero energy drain, so the energy saved up and method of deployment tells me that you could get away with more middle of the road set ups for sure even with the 2" cut because it is only 2 blades.
If by lowside you mean like sub 50ft lbs kid or women type stuff? It's probably not the BEST choice? You still want to 99% of the time at least get that head poking out the backside of the vitals if at all possible and 2" of cut is still a lot of blade to be pushing ragardless of how easy it opens.
IMO it should work just fine for basically any adult modern set up generating that old standard of 55ft lbs of KE or more.
ME? (My 08 set up will probably be in the 90ft lb range so here's hoping Rage comes out with a 2.25 or 2.5" version
)3. Why would someone seriously think this head would defelect or skip anymore than any other head? Seriously? There is way too much "Heresay" thrown around because somebody heard a brother's cousin's friend's uncle had a big mechanical "Bounce" off a deer a couple years ago.
For one I have probably 24 deer shot with Rocket mechanicals alone, have successfully used quite a variety of other mechs(NAP, WASP, Rocky Mt) and have very successful friends who all use every mechanical under the sun (and many of the variety that are 'suspect" of being bouncers) and we have never seen the 'deflection" We're talking a lot of heads of the swing open style with really forward blade tips and EXTENDED tips as well thatjust by looking at you could PICTURE something like that happening even though I've never seen it in my circle of maybe 100 deer taken with mechs?
So fast forward to the Rage (and Snyper for that matter) If you step back and actually LOOK at the design there is absolutely NOTHING about the design that lends itself to a deflection more than any head, and I might argue that the potential is even LESS so than a conventional fixed blade. There is nothing swinging or spinning or levering laterally against the direction of travel....and remember I've never seen or heard of it with the heads that have been given this reputation (Rocket Hammerheads, etc)
First you have a cutting edge tip insert and a tip design which is extended quite a bit in front of the blade shoulders (At least as much as any fixed head) So that tip will drive in and bite at the same time the blade shoulders get slid straight back into a locked position and as the tip is digging in further the leading edge of the blade still has not been FORCED into the hide.
By the time the blades are open and locked quite a bit of the furrule of the broadhead has already determined its course of travel. Once that tip is in the body where exactly is the arow going to deflect? The only way anything can DEFLECT is if the tip never penetrates the medium it's shot into.
An extended cutting tip like you see on the Rage should penetrate like crazy regardless of the angle it's shot on.
IMO if a conventional head will do it, this one will too.
I'm not saying this head is a "Magic Bullet", practice and shot selection are much more of the Magic Bullet, but it does seem that for a good number of people this broadhead can provide outstanding results.
I'll know more after I kill another handful of deer with it but I have been VERY impressed with the results myself and friends have been seeing.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
11-26-2007, 07:09 PM
#8
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 828
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
Ok I'll bite.
1. IMO The scapula is a "Bad hit" that is the exception rather than the rule most often hit by people using a POOR SHOT SELECTION as in a quartering to steep angled shot.
The outer rearward "Paddle" edge of the shoulder blade really isn't that tough but the real broadhead stopper is the anterior ridge that provides the point of attachment for the shoulder muscles. This is a really thick area that no broadhead is going to do well on and to be quite honest is so off course with where you should be shooting that its almost in a non-vital region of the body. I'll say it again, BONE CRUSHING is the most overrated marketing tool that a broadhead company can use. There is far more soft tissue and ribcage that covers the vital organs than heavy bone. The only 'Heavy Bone" you should even consider is the one area of the shoulder blade and if you are hitting that consistently enough to be a concern then rethink your shot angles.
As for the spine? IMO any broadhead can and will shatter the spine without much problem if a deer ducks etc. I have completely exploded the spinal column on a few mature bucks with even superlight broadheads like the Rocket "Miniblaster 75gr.
If your worried about the heavy forelegbone? Again rethink what shots you are taking because it should never come into play unless you smack it on the way OUT.
Just look at a deer's anatomy........look at all the area in the chest all the way back to the femoral aretery in the hind quarters. There is no need for a "Bone Crushing" broadhead. NONE. Again you are FAR more likely under proper shooting angles to encounter a 1 lung, liver, stomach , kidney or other hit where you really should hope your broadhead is reaching out and hitting as many vessels and organs as possible as well as providing the best entry and exit holes it can to aid in recovery.
Nobody, at least in their right mind, would intentionally aim for the shoulder to actually hit that. But, stuff happens. All I'm asking is what will happen to those big wide blades should one so happen to smack a scap.
2.??? I haven't really played with it enough to get a feel for what KE and momentum levels should work with this head cleanly and consistently in the body cavity of a deer? I would probablyERR on the mid to high side for KE, (60 ft lbs and above if I had to throw out a number.)
It does open quickly and with what seems like zero energy drain, so the energy saved up and method of deployment tells me that you could get away with more middle of the road set ups for sure even with the 2" cut because it is only 2 blades.
If by lowside you mean like sub 50ft lbs kid or women type stuff? It's probably not the BEST choice? You still want to 99% of the time at least get that head poking out the backside of the vitals if at all possible and 2" of cut is still a lot of blade to be pushing ragardless of how easy it opens.
IMO it should work just fine for basically any adult modern set up generating that old standard of 55ft lbs of KE or more.
ME? (My 08 set up will probably be in the 90ft lb range so here's hoping Rage comes out with a 2.25 or 2.5" version)
We're on the same page here. IMO I don't have enough KE (40ftlb) but you certainly do. I think alot of male shooters would struggle to hit 55lbs of KE, but will be hardpressed to admit that.
3. Why would someone seriously think this head would defelect or skip anymore than any other head? Seriously? There is way too much "Heresay" thrown around because somebody heard a brother's cousin's friend's uncle had a big mechanical "Bounce" off a deer a couple years ago.
For one I have probably 24 deer shot with Rocket mechanicals alone, have successfully used quite a variety of other mechs(NAP, WASP, Rocky Mt) and have very successful friends who all use every mechanical under the sun (and many of the variety that are 'suspect" of being bouncers) and we have never seen the 'deflection" We're talking a lot of heads of the swing open style with really forward blade tips and EXTENDED tips as well thatjust by looking at you could PICTURE something like that happening even though I've never seen it in my circle of maybe 100 deer taken with mechs?
So fast forward to the Rage (and Snyper for that matter) If you step back and actually LOOK at the design there is absolutely NOTHING about the design that lends itself to a deflection more than any head, and I might argue that the potential is even LESS so than a conventional fixed blade. There is nothing swinging or spinning or levering laterally against the direction of travel....and remember I've never seen or heard of it with the heads that have been given this reputation (Rocket Hammerheads, etc)
First you have a cutting edge tip insert and a tip design which is extended quite a bit in front of the blade shoulders (At least as much as any fixed head) So that tip will drive in and bite at the same time the blade shoulders get slid straight back into a locked position and as the tip is digging in further the leading edge of the blade still has not been FORCED into the hide.
By the time the blades are open and locked quite a bit of the furrule of the broadhead has already determined its course of travel. Once that tip is in the body where exactly is the arow going to deflect? The only way anything can DEFLECT is if the tip never penetrates the medium it's shot into.
An extended cutting tip like you see on the Rage should penetrate like crazy regardless of the angle it's shot on.
IMO if a conventional head will do it, this one will too.
I'm not saying this head is a "Magic Bullet", practice and shot selection are much more of the Magic Bullet, but it does seem that for a good number of people this broadhead can provide outstanding results.
I'll know more after I kill another handful of deer with it but I have been VERY impressed with the results myself and friends have been seeing.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
ORIGINAL: Doegirl75
O.K., I'll play devil's advocate:
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
O.K., I'll play devil's advocate:
1. Would this be best "bad hit" broadhead if you hit the scapula or other heavy bone?
2. Is this the best bad hit broadhead if your k.e. is on the low side?
3. How confident can one possibly be on a hard quartering shot that blades which cut 2" wide isn't going to deflect and skid?
These are some questions that come to my mind.
1. IMO The scapula is a "Bad hit" that is the exception rather than the rule most often hit by people using a POOR SHOT SELECTION as in a quartering to steep angled shot.
The outer rearward "Paddle" edge of the shoulder blade really isn't that tough but the real broadhead stopper is the anterior ridge that provides the point of attachment for the shoulder muscles. This is a really thick area that no broadhead is going to do well on and to be quite honest is so off course with where you should be shooting that its almost in a non-vital region of the body. I'll say it again, BONE CRUSHING is the most overrated marketing tool that a broadhead company can use. There is far more soft tissue and ribcage that covers the vital organs than heavy bone. The only 'Heavy Bone" you should even consider is the one area of the shoulder blade and if you are hitting that consistently enough to be a concern then rethink your shot angles.
As for the spine? IMO any broadhead can and will shatter the spine without much problem if a deer ducks etc. I have completely exploded the spinal column on a few mature bucks with even superlight broadheads like the Rocket "Miniblaster 75gr.
If your worried about the heavy forelegbone? Again rethink what shots you are taking because it should never come into play unless you smack it on the way OUT.
Just look at a deer's anatomy........look at all the area in the chest all the way back to the femoral aretery in the hind quarters. There is no need for a "Bone Crushing" broadhead. NONE. Again you are FAR more likely under proper shooting angles to encounter a 1 lung, liver, stomach , kidney or other hit where you really should hope your broadhead is reaching out and hitting as many vessels and organs as possible as well as providing the best entry and exit holes it can to aid in recovery.
Nobody, at least in their right mind, would intentionally aim for the shoulder to actually hit that. But, stuff happens. All I'm asking is what will happen to those big wide blades should one so happen to smack a scap.
2.??? I haven't really played with it enough to get a feel for what KE and momentum levels should work with this head cleanly and consistently in the body cavity of a deer? I would probablyERR on the mid to high side for KE, (60 ft lbs and above if I had to throw out a number.)
It does open quickly and with what seems like zero energy drain, so the energy saved up and method of deployment tells me that you could get away with more middle of the road set ups for sure even with the 2" cut because it is only 2 blades.
If by lowside you mean like sub 50ft lbs kid or women type stuff? It's probably not the BEST choice? You still want to 99% of the time at least get that head poking out the backside of the vitals if at all possible and 2" of cut is still a lot of blade to be pushing ragardless of how easy it opens.
IMO it should work just fine for basically any adult modern set up generating that old standard of 55ft lbs of KE or more.
ME? (My 08 set up will probably be in the 90ft lb range so here's hoping Rage comes out with a 2.25 or 2.5" version
)We're on the same page here. IMO I don't have enough KE (40ftlb) but you certainly do. I think alot of male shooters would struggle to hit 55lbs of KE, but will be hardpressed to admit that.
3. Why would someone seriously think this head would defelect or skip anymore than any other head? Seriously? There is way too much "Heresay" thrown around because somebody heard a brother's cousin's friend's uncle had a big mechanical "Bounce" off a deer a couple years ago.
For one I have probably 24 deer shot with Rocket mechanicals alone, have successfully used quite a variety of other mechs(NAP, WASP, Rocky Mt) and have very successful friends who all use every mechanical under the sun (and many of the variety that are 'suspect" of being bouncers) and we have never seen the 'deflection" We're talking a lot of heads of the swing open style with really forward blade tips and EXTENDED tips as well thatjust by looking at you could PICTURE something like that happening even though I've never seen it in my circle of maybe 100 deer taken with mechs?
So fast forward to the Rage (and Snyper for that matter) If you step back and actually LOOK at the design there is absolutely NOTHING about the design that lends itself to a deflection more than any head, and I might argue that the potential is even LESS so than a conventional fixed blade. There is nothing swinging or spinning or levering laterally against the direction of travel....and remember I've never seen or heard of it with the heads that have been given this reputation (Rocket Hammerheads, etc)
First you have a cutting edge tip insert and a tip design which is extended quite a bit in front of the blade shoulders (At least as much as any fixed head) So that tip will drive in and bite at the same time the blade shoulders get slid straight back into a locked position and as the tip is digging in further the leading edge of the blade still has not been FORCED into the hide.
By the time the blades are open and locked quite a bit of the furrule of the broadhead has already determined its course of travel. Once that tip is in the body where exactly is the arow going to deflect? The only way anything can DEFLECT is if the tip never penetrates the medium it's shot into.
An extended cutting tip like you see on the Rage should penetrate like crazy regardless of the angle it's shot on.
IMO if a conventional head will do it, this one will too.
I'm not saying this head is a "Magic Bullet", practice and shot selection are much more of the Magic Bullet, but it does seem that for a good number of people this broadhead can provide outstanding results.
I'll know more after I kill another handful of deer with it but I have been VERY impressed with the results myself and friends have been seeing.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
But I do think the questions of durability, eating up KE, and possible deflections were fair ones to ask.
11-26-2007, 07:56 PM
#9
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Rage: Best Bad Hit Broadhead?
OMG....I posted this the first time and got some error message....Soooooooo...here we go again.
Certainly they are valid questions, and fair. I think you misunderstood Matt a little. He was by no means trying to belittle you, or even throw you or anyone into the "anti Rage camp." His opening statement "Ok, I'll bite" was actually humor. It's a PA thing, most of us wouldn't understand. They remind me of Monte Python, funny, but very dry.....
I've personally seen the effectiveness of both the 3 blade and the 2 blade rage. It is absolutely phenominal. I would like to see the retention system improved just a bit, but.....They won't deflect, they HAVE to open and they eat very little KE, if any.
SOME of the reason a "traditional" mech head eats up so much KE is because the blades aren't fully deployed when the head enters the animal. For a brief period of time, the tip is the only thing doing the cutting, until the blades deploy. With the Rage head, the blades are fully deployed upon entrance, and in that respect they work like a fixed blade head.
Oh, durability is a slight issue. The blades do shear off fairly easily. The buck I shot, the head was completely destroyed. My buddy shot a doe, and it was fully intact. Just depends on what you hit I suppose.
Certainly they are valid questions, and fair. I think you misunderstood Matt a little. He was by no means trying to belittle you, or even throw you or anyone into the "anti Rage camp." His opening statement "Ok, I'll bite" was actually humor. It's a PA thing, most of us wouldn't understand. They remind me of Monte Python, funny, but very dry.....
I've personally seen the effectiveness of both the 3 blade and the 2 blade rage. It is absolutely phenominal. I would like to see the retention system improved just a bit, but.....They won't deflect, they HAVE to open and they eat very little KE, if any.
SOME of the reason a "traditional" mech head eats up so much KE is because the blades aren't fully deployed when the head enters the animal. For a brief period of time, the tip is the only thing doing the cutting, until the blades deploy. With the Rage head, the blades are fully deployed upon entrance, and in that respect they work like a fixed blade head.
Oh, durability is a slight issue. The blades do shear off fairly easily. The buck I shot, the head was completely destroyed. My buddy shot a doe, and it was fully intact. Just depends on what you hit I suppose.