Crud ring question
 

Hello everybody!

Been awhile since I've posted but I have a question. I purchased a new T/C Omega not long ago but because of work issues I have not had a chance to shoot it yet. I have said
before that I'm relatively new to Muzzleloading and on this forum and others I have read
about the "crud ring". I have seen many post that talk about the Triple Seven product
causing this ring but I don't recall seeing anything about Pyrodex (loose or pellets) causing this. Does (or will) Pyrodex cause the dreaded crud ring? That's my question.
I have also read good things about Black mag3 powder. I will be going to Cabela's soon
and may have to pick up some Black mag3. Seems this powder causes no crud ring.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thank you all.

RE: Crud ring question
 

Use a good tight sabot, and no crud ring. Use a loose fitting projectile like a powerbelt, and you might.

RE: Crud ring question
 

A crud ring is nothing more then fowling of the powder in the barrel of the rifle near the area where the projectile sits. All powders produce a crud ring of sorts. Some powders perhaps worse then others. The difference in the crud ring that concerns black powder shooters is how hard the crud ring is.

Triple Se7en fowling is crusty and much harder then other powders. Since it is made from the burning of Triple Se7en it can be removed with simple water. So when you swab the bore of the rifle you have to pay special attention to the area near the breech. Work the barrel from the muzzle to the breech in short strokes with your cleaning patches and you should be fine.

Pyrodex produces a softer fowling then Triple Se7en but it is still fowling just the same and should be swabbed between shots for the best accuracy from your rifle.

Goex also produces fowling and again it can also be removed with a simple swabbing of the bore. The Black Mag3 I can not comment on. Clean Shot or AAP produces a fowling but not to the degree of some of the other powders.

No matter what powder you pick, be sure and carefully swab between shots and do not worry about the crud ring. Make sure you put a witness mark on your ramrod and that each projectile you load falls to the witness mark. If you're doing a good job of swabbing the dreaded crud ring will not be a problem....

RE: Crud ring question
 

i use 100 gr (2 50 gr pellets) out of my omega with a winchester primer with no problems with a 250 gr SST if that matters

RE: Crud ring question
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is speculated by many that the 777 crud ring is caused not exactly by the powder but the 209 primer pushing the pellets and projectile slightly off before full ignition which created an air gap where pressure and heat shoot up? Where Loose powder won't have this problem near as severe?

Thats the reason I didn't have any problem with my new power stem from knight and loose 777. So I figure.

RE: Crud ring question
 

I had the same problem when I got started muzzleloading last year. Started out with 2 50 grain pellets 777 and powerbelts, terrible crusting. Switched over to shockwave sabots and stopped lubing the barrel with bore butter as I did with the powerbelt and the crust ring was reduced greatly. Then I increased my load to 130 grains total in pellets and now I barely get a crust ring.

RE: Crud ring question
 

I pretty much agree that all powders leave some kind of fouling. 777 is the worst in my rifle and so bad I refuse to shoot it anymore. APP is probably the least fouling except for Black Mag'3 which has so little that I hesitate to call it fouling. I get a little gray powder on a patch if I swab after four or five shots. With a 209 primer I get a little more than I get with the .25ACP primer although with Black Mag'3 I get slightly more velocity using the 209 primer. The increased velocity with less felt recoil compared to 777 has me convinced that Black Mag'3 my powder from now on.

RE: Crud ring question
 

I use Black Mag3 (loose powder) and I don't see much of a crud ring if any. My brother-in-law has a substantial crud ring and he is using a 209 primer against Triple 7 pellets, both in the 30 & 50 grain. Someone told me that the pellets were worse for a crud ring but I don't know that for a fact since I don't use pellets.

RE: Crud ring question
 

Guys, maybe I am wrong, but don't you think all this crud ring thing has gotten a little out of control? I have several muzzys and I swab with No13 between shots. I guess I am asking is why is it so important to a lot of people.

RE: Crud ring question
 

First off, I have never shot pellets in the inlines I own I admit. I have shot Triple Se7en, Pyrodex RS & P, and enough Goex to choke a horse and like Big Country, I swab with 50/50 alcohol and car windshield washer fluid between shots and have never really got all that concerned about crud rings.

I will say I sure like what I am reading about the Black Mag3. Graveyard zombie & MLKeith's posts on this powder are very informative and have sure sparked my interest. In fact I have my brother in Madison looking through the stores right now for a pound of the FFFg grade. I also ordered three pounds of Goex Pinnacle FFFg and am excited about giving that a test in the inlines this summer.

If shooters do a good job of swabbing between shots, crud rings should be the least of their worries. Make sure they watch the witness mark on the ramrods and when they start to fudge a little on the mark, then get a brass brush out too and scrub a little before you swab. And guys ... keep checking them breech plugs. You do not want to seize on up! [:@]

RE: Crud ring question
 

Big Country's and Cayugad's comments got me to thinking about my shooting practices. I also swab between shots so maybe its this practice or the Black Mag3 not having a crud ring, or both. I called my brother-in-law and he doesn't swab between shots but he does swab "every so often". So I guess that is some of the reason for his "crud ring". He just says it is hard to clean near his breechplug and he thought it may be from the pellets or hotter 209 ignition. I think if he swabbed inbetween shots or just a little more often it wouldn't exist at all? Maybe Big Country has hit on something and this crud ring is just one of those muzzleloading myths someone started just to "stir the pot" and have a lot of fun out of these hunting forums. Since Triple 7 seems to be immensely popular both in powder and pellet form, maybe it was one of the other competitors that started this rumor? The one actual fact I do know from these forums is that Triple 7 and Black Mag3 do vary in their "felt recoil" with the Black Mag3 being easier on the shoulder. The Black Mag3 powder ignites better for me than the Triple 7 and I'm basing that on my using a #11 cap. I had to go to a musket cap to keep constant ignition from Triple 7 but have not had any misfires with Black Mag3 yet. The downside to Black Mag3 is that it is more expensive than any of the other black powder substitutes readily available in my area.

RE: Crud ring question
 

Thanks to all for your advice and comments. I'm not worried about the crud ring, I was just asking about it since their seems to be a number of post and questions on the subject. I clean my weapons everytime I shoot them and when shooting a muzzleloader I always swab between every two shots (with my old traditions) and intend to do the same with my Omega. Anyway, Thanks for the info.

RE: Crud ring question
 

I think you started this post with the mention that you have an Omega. I have one also and to answer the "what is all this about crud ring?" question: When I shoot ffg Tripple Seven in my Omega the crud ring that forms is so strong that I have to run two to three patches wet (I have tried alcohol, windex-non amonia, No 13 and water) then several dry patches and even then I still cannot get a second sabot loaded without using a brass brush to get rid of the 777 crud ring. I don't know how many hunt elk without a hunting pardner but I cannot afford to let them wander into a canyon so I sometimes need a second shot to drop the big animals within a resonable recovery area. The above drill would allow the elk to make about a mile before I could get reloaded. I have had them drop within 50 yards with one shot but I have also had them travel several hundred yards when hit well. So the crud ring is a problem for me and apparently for some others. Some rifles and bullet combinations do not form the heavy crud ring apparently but I have not found that to be true with my Omega. Black Mag'3 fixes all the above problems.

RE: Crud ring question
 

By September, Remington Kleanbore 209 primers will be available. They help to reduce crud rings along with 777 FFF loose powder. The crud ring is a non-issue in my Omega since I went to weak 209 primer and fine powder. Two shots are no problem using 130 grain Pyrodex equivalent with 777.

RE: Crud ring question
 

I know you are pretty satisfied with 777. I wonder if your Omega was as bad as mine is with Winchester 209 and ffg 777. It was so bad I actually broke a range rod twice trying to deal with the crud ring (actually broke the jag). I finally decided the only thing that would work for me was to run the brass brush each time before I sent a patch down and then I still had to run it again after a wet patch to get all the crud out. I believe the crud ring is worse in dry climate and of course I am in Arizona. If I believed that going to fffg would make it usable I might consider trying it again but so far I can't find any fffg in my area and the price of ffg has gone up in Walmart to $23 a pound. I will buy Black Mag'3 that works great if I am going to spend $23 for 777 that might work. I am interested in how your Omega was with ffg 777.

RE: Crud ring question
 

With 777, If you clean well in-between shots, then fouling near the breech or "crud ring' is not really an issue, unless you don't do that good of job cleaning in-between each shot. Then eventually the buildup will cause loading difficulties to impossibility depending on the bore tolerance of your rifle and your projectile choice. Tighter bores and projectiles such as sabot are more rapidly affected by fouling with respect to loading ease.

RE: Crud ring question
 

try this it works for me an I shoot 2/50 gr pellet 777 Hornady sabot (black) Hornady XTP mag 300 gr HP (some 45 cal. bullets are as large as .454 for use in a 45 Colt down to .451 for 45 ACP)
I am currently using .452
Brush your bore with a brass brush from the breech end every 4-5 shots, spray Pam cooking spray in the breech end up from the breech plug threads forward about 2", the oil burns off clean and stops scorching, wipes out just as easy as your favorite cast iron frying pan. Uly

RE: Crud ring question
 

A suggestion: I appreciate when the location for each person is listed as it gives me an idea about their conditions which in some cases is good information. For instance; I have noticed that the majority of people that seem to have little trouble with the 777 crud ring seem to be from humid climates. I am in Arizona and it is a biig problem for me. Just a thought.

RE: Crud ring question
 

Keith -sent you a PM

Charlie

RE: Crud ring question
 

Maryland here!!!!!! What crud ring????????

RE: Crud ring question
 

See what I mean; I don't think Maryland is quite as dry as Arizona.

RE: Crud ring question
 

To throw into the mix, I can say that I shoot 777 FFg from early spring till early winter in northern Michigan (weather permitting of course). Go through about 3-4 lbs ( 777 loose) a season and use CCI 209's and Rem 209-4's in my inlines and CCI & Rem #11 caps on my sidelocks.

I normally notice the crud ring on charges usually over 60 gr loose. As many post,No Big Deal as I swab between all shots anyway. It progressively gets worse with larger charges in my guns,regardless of the primer type or gun.

What I have definately noticed...is that on cold, clear..or hot DRY days, the crud ring is harder and therefore more tenacious.
On warm/hot ..or cold, damp HUMID days, the crud ring is there, but not as hard to remove with the damp patch (home brew) and normal short (pumping) strokes of the rod.
If I was shooting in Mesa Ariz ( hot,dry) I surely could understand objections to a crud ring akin to a T7 Life Saver stuck in the breech of me barrel.;)

RE: Crud ring question
 

There may be something to that. Cause the whole problem seems that a 209 pushes the load off and creates an air gap. And makes a higher pressure spike in dry air? Maybe.