Savage 10ML
 

Just got my Savage with laminated stock and Accu-trigger.......have a Leupold Vx II on it......i will be going elk hunting this fall......anyone know the maximum effective range for elk using this package?

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Don't know about the particular gun but you had better check the regulations in the state that you are going hunting in.

If going to Colorado you will not be able to use smokeless powder in that Savage nor will you be able to keep that scope on your ML.

Also if you will be using smmokeless powder be very careful when working up a load as smokeless powder will give you much more pressure than black powder will. It also creates a much bigger change in pressure with a minimal change in charge weight and bullet weight/ type. Black powder and its substitutes are not nearly as sensative to these changes in loads.

Maximum effective range will depend on powder charge, bullet weight and design, velocity, your personal skills etc.....

RE: Savage 10ML
 

thanks for the advice........i will be hunting elk in wyoming as a non-resident (i live in iowa)........haven't had a chance to work up any loads yet (unfortunately, work keeps getting in the way of having fun).......i've read that if a guy spends enough time practicing at 300 yards, you can reasonably expect to take an elk at 300 yards with this gun........sounds like an awfuly long way to me........the other problem, my local range only goes out to 200 yards.......so trying my hand at 300 will be difficult........

[8D]

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Try some N110 (43 to 44.5 grs) a 250 sst or barnes bullet,using win primers.and see how yours shoot.My buddy just got the new one with the cameo stock,started out with 44.5 grs of n110 and barnes bullet(250 gr ) put 4 In the same hole at 100 yds.Mine is the older model but we both shot 1 in groups @200 yds.
Don't know about elk but for deer some here say that they took deer at 29oyds+
Good luck with your savage.
Check out the savage muzzleloader boards.
If you cannot find N110 the IMR 4759 gives about the same speed using 43 to 44 grs.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment of the dangers of smokeless powder in the Savage 10ML-II, and in fact I would counter that using smokeless is SAFER than BP and subs. In fact, I believe that the Savage is the safest ML in existance today, ESPECIALLY when used with smokeless powder. Why?

First of all, the Savage 10ML's barrel is proofed to 129,000psi (that's 129 thousand, no typo). That pressure is twice the pressures generated by most CF magnum rifles. You'd have to pack a crapload of powder into the barrel before you'd hit those pressures, but the pressure levels won't ever get that high as long as you're using the projectiles listed in the manual. The Savage 10ML clearly indicates the use of .45cal bullets and high pressure sabots ONLY when using smokeless powder. Even high pressure sabots won't stand up to more than about 50,000psi before the sabot blows out and vents off any additional pressures right down the barrel. The worst that could happen is gas cutting and of the sabot, tons of plastic fouling and possibly bore erosion, but the sabot will blow long before dangerous pressure levels are reached.

In addition to the above, smokeless powder itself is actually MUCH safer to handle than BP and subs. BP and most subs require little more than a tiny spark to light them off, and as such require brass (which doesn't spark) or plastic powder flasks and measures. Smokeless, on the other hand, requires intense heat to light it off, meaning that it's far more stable than BP. And if uncontained smokeless does ignite it simply burn intensely but progressively, unlike BP which can effectivly explode when ignited in excess air.

I will admit that when I first heard of the Savage ML10 being able to use smokeless powder, I was skeptical of the wisdom of using it in a muzzleloader. In fact my first thought when I heard of it was that it was only a matter of time before some jackass dumped 100 grains by volume of smokeless powder down the barrel and proceeded to blow himself, and anyone standing next to him, straight to kingdom come. But still being curious I did some poking around and found the following articles by Mr. Randy Wakeman, a man who's fairly well versed in the realm of muzzleloading and from what I can tell, his opinions are well researched and thought out. After reading his articles detailing the ML10 and exposing the myth that it is unsafe (probably perpetuated by Savages competitors), I'm convinced that the Savage is the best built, and safest muzzleloader on the planet today.

Here are four articles written by Randy Wakeman that convinced me that the Savage ML10 is not only safe, but actually safer than any of the other ML's on the market today. See for yourself.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML10.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_10MLII_accutrigger.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm

Mike

RE: Savage 10ML
 

thanks for all the links to that info.......haven't had a chance to work mine up yet.......won't be able to get out to range until sometime in July (will be gone for a couple of weeks on vacation)........sounds like it won't only be fun, it'll quite safe too.......

:)

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Does anybody know if I would be allowed to use smokeless powder in my Savage in New Mexico for muzzleloader deer season? Thanks..

Vinny

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Cousinvinny,

The short answer to your question is no. New Mexico is apparently one of the states that regulates the types of powders that may be used in a muzzleloader, despite the fact that no matter what kind of powder you use it's still a muzzleloader. You're stuck shooting the cruddy stuff, sorry.

The following excerpt was taken from the New Mexico big game hunting regs PDF available at http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us

Mike

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Although, if you got caught using smokeless powder, I suppose you could argue that smokeless powder is legal under this definition because smokeless was, and still is, the first and ultimate black powder "substitute." Smokeless powder was being used as a substitute for black powder almost 100 years before Pyrodex was invented. You'd probably still get the ticket, but you'd be fighting the good fight! ;)

Mike

RE: Savage 10ML
 

http://www.dream-tool.net/tools/mess...gemuzzleloader Try this for all you want to know about the savage muzzle loader

RE: Savage 10ML
 

The close mindedness of that is absolutely astounding. Can they not see that this is where the muzzle loading world is going? And that one day, the ratio of the number of BP muzzleloaders to the number of smokeless muzzleloaders is going to be reversed from what it is today? I mean, as long as you are still using a muzzleloader, and you are still restricted by the same limitations shared by all muzzleloaders, what difference is it to the state wildlife depts whether a hunter uses black powder, smokeless powder, or jock itch powder? You still have to go through the same motions as everyone else to reload after you have fired. Using a powder that is safer and does not corrode your gun does not make you one whit more likely to bag a deer than someone else who is using a powder that is more dangerous and that fouls and corrodes his gun. It gives you no technological edge whatsoever over the other hunters or the game animals, other than that you are more likely to return home with all your fingers and your face intact. The person who is using smokeless powder may have to brush his bore less than the person who is using a smoke generating powder, but that will not affect the chances of a successful hunt. If I use smokeless powder on a hunt, that is no skin off anyone else's back. The blindness and prejudice of people can really be astonishing.

The intent of their stupid law is not that you must use BP or a BP substitute, because smokeless powder is in fact the oldest and most traditional of all BP substitutes. It would be far more accurate to describe the intent of the law as that you must use a propellant which generates a lot of smoke. That is really stupid, because, how do you give a legal definition of "a lot of smoke?" How many cubic inches of smoke does your propellant have to generate at each shot in order to be legal? And what does the density of the smoke have to be? An attorney could have a ball with this law in court. Unfortunately, I do not have the funds to finance the battle. Maybe if Savage were to guarantee me that they would pay the legal expenses of the battle and the fine if I lose, I would intentionally allow myself to be caught using smokeless powder. It would certainly be in Savage's as well as the hunters' interest to see laws like this be stricken down in court, as they should be. This law is totally arbitrary and ill defined.

Vinny

RE: Savage 10ML
 

There may be some safety reason behind smokeless vice BP & its substitutes in BP guns. More likely they want to keep the BP hunting as original as possible. The inline started a snowball of diluting the original BP “PRIMATIVE “ hunting season. Seems there are many variations of how primitive various states want to stay. As to the smoke issue a significant disadvantage exists with smokeless powder in that it obscures sight of the animal when he runs away. I guess this adds to the experience for some. Don’t forget most states added a black powder season to the rifle / shotgun season years ago. If you make the BP guns to close to rifle maybe the BP season should be taken away. Lets see here’s some of what has been added since BP season inception.

Scopes, Inlines, Primers (waterproofing), Pellets (easier, waterproofing), Plastics( sights & Parts) For all intensive purposes other than loaded from the Muzzle BP has become a rifle if you care to upgrade. I would have no problem with all states going more backward like Colorado and dumping all the modern add-ons. Remember BP was Originally was synonymous with Primitive. I think some states called it a Primitive hunting season?? My 2 Cents

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Scopes, primers, and smokeless powders all go back well into the 1800's. Pyrodex goes back to the 1970's. Triple 7 I think the 1990's. Pyrodex and Triple 7 are more "primitive" than smokeless powder and scopes, and that is why they are legal and smokeless is not. Huh? Say what? That must be the "new math," or something, because it sure is not computing in my books. Oh, and let us not forget, the man who invented Pyrodex was killed by his own product when his plant exploded..

Vinny

RE: Savage 10ML
 

I think that maybe the intent of the law was to encourage hunters to become better outdoorsmen/women and develop the skills to get closer to their prey. Otherwise why have a special season. If not then a guy with a CF or BP or bow are all hunting the same area at the same time, and in this situation there is a distinct advantage. Assuming public land hunting. That's my opinion anyway whether its worth andything i'll leave you all to decide.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

I shoot a ultimate firearms muzzleloader and burn up to 250 grains of t7 pellets and get great numbers and it is legal in all states yet it does cost a lot more money than the savage, myself and randy wakeman have had many phone calls and emails with each other about these guns, and the savage is good but it does you no good if you cant burn smokless, my current numbers are

300 sst over 200 grains of t7 pellets are 2350fps on average

RE: Savage 10ML
 

I am shocked you can get all that powder to burn efficiently. Your the first I have seen thats been able too. I bet your velocity spread are pretty wild.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

What kind of chrony are you using??Think I will go along with one of the experts on muzzleloaders and he says you cannot get the fps that Ultimate claims.
I know one thing I have tested an encore 50 cal and the most powder it will burn without throwing burning cinders out the barrel is 120 grs.Any length barrel will just burn so much powder before the bullet leaves the barrel.
If you want to read what bridges has to say,you can check it out at :
hpmuzzleloading.com

RE: Savage 10ML
 

I have never got those number on my F1 Chrony that the manufactures advertise. But i kinda expected it. I never get the velocity numbers they advertise while centerfire reloading. I usually get pressure signs.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

first off toby has no gun that can even come close to the ultimate and he refuses to test he was just here in michigan and still wont come shoot it, and f1 is what i have and my numbers spred isnt that great, and it does burn all the powder in the first 16-18 inches it uses a 45 win mag casing as its igniton system, and a special breech plug, i have an encore and omega as well and dont use over 100 of t7 due to accuracy. but the ultimate is just that, ultimate it shoots and is not for everybody at 1500 a gun it aint cheap. if ever in michigan feel free to come shoot it. myself and randy wakeman have talked about it quite a bit as for toby well he hasnt shot it and he cant claim anthying he can stick to his savage with smokeless i get better numbers and accuracy with triple 7 pellets, not that the savage is a bad gun, but then again like i said the savage cant come close. and dont belive toby since he wont test it oh well! look for the up comming article in outdoor life and the nra magazines also look for the gun on a away outdoors this up comming week and on future hunts, i shoot 4 pellets and a 300 grain sst and do get 2350

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Hey Deputy, how it's going? Not trying to stick for Toby Bridges, he can do that capably himself, but the reason he hasn't tested one, is because they haven't sent him one, to test and wring out for himself by himself. He has stated to me that he was not interested in traveling up to Michigan, just to fire a few shots through a chronograph.

Not doubt that at those velocities, the UF is impressive, for a blackpowder rifle. But to state that the Savage does not come close, well that's not the case. We've been shooting 300gr XTP's at those velocities out of our custom builts for the better part of a 14 years now and out of Savage's for the past 4 years. Here is a link to Doug's site http://dougva.proboards34.com/index....avage&start=80
They are talking about 3,000+ FPS with the Savage now, with some loads. Even 2,600 FPS with light weight 250gr bullets are getting to be hohum, these days.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

toby was here in michigan this past month! the savage is a good gun but 3k fps with a load that isnt legal to hun t with in a lot of states and from what i have seen accuracy suffered at those numbers at least out of my friends savage. you guys came up with a great gun for sure but it cant hit those numbers with pellets can it? i like the smokeless asspect of the savage i have shot some pretty wicked numbers too out of my ultimate with smokless and 5744 and vit powders as well, but the main differance is the ultimate is doing it with pellets not loose smokeless powder and it is legal,
ralph laymar has a pretty good article comming out here on the ultimate as well as gun world and a few others, but i will admit the savage is a nice gun for the money, and at 1500 hundred the ultimate is out of somes pocket book reach, i just worked a hell of a lot of ot to get mine and since i handled some of the first ultimates pre dating the savage, but maybe a head to head test is in order here! hummm i like that idea maybe ill get a savage and try it out against my guns.

also no vent liners to be modified, no replacing them, no sub bases etc.. just load and shoot and well i can get you my numbers with the 200 grainer if yah like as well it is scarry and then again just load and shoot, and no breech plug to pull and clean ever.

but all stuff aside have you talked with randy latley i have been meaning to call him

RE: Savage 10ML
 

Deputy, we've had debate on another forum. A head to head shoot off with the UF with Pyrodex or T-7 versus the Savage with smokeless, might be very interesting. No doubt that you are extremely proud and found of your UF. If it performs like you say it does, and I have no doubt it doesn't, then you have ervery right to be proud and found of it. I would be too.

Yes, Toby was up in Michigan last month. He was up there doing a smokeless powder muzzlelaoder siminar for the MI DNR and the hunter education program. Why he didn't stop by to fire a couple or a few shots over a chronograph with the UF, you will have to ask him that yourself. But like he has told me on several occassions, is that the only way he will test one, is that UF sends one to him for at least 6 months, let him shoot it, test it, evaluate it, and hunt with it, not the canned or staged so-called "test" that UF's wants him to do. Then he will give UF's and the rest of us his facts, comments and opinions, whether they be good, bad, or ugly. Any kind of other "test" would not a true indication of what the rifle could and could not do. Why will they not send him or anyone else a sample rifle to fairly and honestly test, evaluate, and hunt with?

I go this from the Ultimate Firearms, Inc., website:

Straight from the UF site. This rifle should NEVER be fire with a smokeless powder. The UF muzzleloader IS NOT A SMOKELESS POWDER MUZZLELOADER, WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE AND SHOULD NOT BE SHOT WITH ANY MODERN SMOKELESS POWDERS. Recommended Maximum Powder Charge 200 grains or (4) Pyrodex Pellets Four pellets or 200 grains of T-7 is exceeding UF's recommended MAXIMUM powder charge, not too mention 5 pellets or 250 grains.

First of all, the Savage was designed from the start to be a TRUE SMOKELESS POWDER MUZZLELOADER. For obvious safety reasons, I would not go advocating the use of smokeless powders in any muzzleloader that was not specifically designed to handle it and that the manufacture of that muzzleloader specifically stated and recommended the use of smokeless powder. To do other wise is just not smart.

Whether the Savage is equal to the UF or not, with Pyrodex or T-7, is irrelivent. The Savage is a smokeless powder muzzleloader first and foremost. It just so happens it can and will shoot BP and any of the BP synthetic powders. Quite well I might add. The number of states that do not allow the use of smokeless powders during the muzzleloader hunting seasons is growing smaller every year. The exact same thing happened to In-line muzzleloaders and saboted projectiles when they were first introduced. It won't be but a few years and that argument will be a mute point.

I can understand the vent liner comment, but they (vent liners) need not be modified. The vent liners are a wear item, designed to wear and be replaced instead of replacing the breech plug itself. Just the nautre of the beast with the Savage. I don't normally shoot sub-bases myself and I have no problem, with 2,300+ FPS with a 300gr bullet and 1.5" and better accuracy nor do I have much of any problem getting 2,600+ FPS with 250gr bullets with same accuracy or much better. All this in a rifle that is mild recoiling, much cheaper to shoot, and if you don't want to clean it right away, you don't have, as you can wait a a day or two, a week, a month, or even 6 months. And the Savage doesn't require a AFT Form 4473, and can be mail ordered and shipped directly to your home (if your state's law allow it).

However, on the UF you never, ever have to pull the breech plug and clean it? Have you ever removed your breech plug in your UF? Does it come out easy? Man, I would hate to see that breech plug after a few shots with Pyrodex and letting it sit for a few days, even if I did clean the bore, which I don't know how you can clean the entire bore without removing the breech plug. After a while of that I guess you would have to remove the breech plug, because you couldn't even if you wanted to. And what about using T-7, that stuff was a breech plug sticker for sure when first introduced, have you removed the breech plug since you have been using it? Again, can your breech plug be removed after shooting T-7 and not remove it promptly for cleaning? Just curious, because the UF website says that the breech plug is removeable.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

1shot, been meaning to pose a quesiton to you. Was having a discussion about muzzleloaders on another forum. One guy claimed that the metal type or material has little or nothing to do with the savage being able to handle 125KPSI. He said its design only. Is this statement right. I thought the savage had much stiffer metal than say a CVA inline. Maybe you could clear this up.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

It is a combination of both. But mostly due to the quality of the materials used in the Savage. The barrel, action, and bolts, are the exact same material you will find on their centerfire rifles, 416 Stainless and 4140 Chrome-Moly. That material found in CVA are 1137L/1137LR or 1140L/1140LR, which is a much softer grade steel. While the 1137 & 1140 steels machine beautifully, they don't have the tensil strength and will not stand the the pressure that 4140 & 416 will. Also the breech plug is 4140 (not 416 SS, because stainless on stainless can gawled and become stuck) and the designed of the breech plug. The vent liner, with it's tiny .031" orfice, also contains much of the pressure by throttling back the amount of pressure that bleeds back toward the rear.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

thanks for the info. Hope you don't mind me posting this on another web page on the subject.

RE: Savage 10ML
 

very true i belive in there own right they are great guns, uf i belive will be changing there info soon about the max charge, ralph lamayar (sp.) just completed a review of the gun for an up comming outdoor life article as well as a few other magazines have contacted uf for guns, i will try and get them guys to get toby a gun! i understand abouyt the gun being built from ground up as a smokless gun. and the vent liners now, as for the breech plug the design allows it to be removed but it need not be, the design of the breech plug allows no powder back into around the threads of the plug, dont ask me how but it good enough that 5 patches and iam done after a day of shooting. i will do some shooting against my buddies savage and see since we still cant use smokless here in mi i guess ill keep it until we change the law to shoot smokeless