Firearm safes
12-28-2017, 07:06 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
Firearm safes
Read an interesting article written by a safe professional and our gun safes are really not what we might think they are, but only a momentary obstacle.
It appears that those really thick pins that lock the door, are very short and not connected to a large gear system inside. Actually they're connected to very thin metal rods that make up the tracking system. Therefore very easily opened in about 10 minutes by an amateur with a couple pry bars. Those large pins are actually only as long as what we see sticking out the door.
The safe professional states that safes basically fail because the safe body and the door body is too thin. It appears most modern gun safes are built with thinner 14-gauge steel, when it really needs to be a minimum of 10-gauge steel, much heavier and nearly impossible to pry open. Of course a thief with metal cutting equipment, saws and torches, is going to get into any of them.
His next complaint is about the cheap China built digital locks on the units. He states locksmiths make a lot of money opening them. He recommends changing these cheap digital locks to locks from S&G or KaGard. I know I had to have a locksmith open a safe, once. Its not cheap!
His next complaint is about fire protection. He states that only a safe with an UL Class 350 rating, is actually fireproof, but such safes are not available for retail. He states that paper will ignite at 451° and if the inside temp reaches that, all papers within the safe will ignite, including money. Wood stocks are finished with petroleum-based stains and oils, which are very likely to burn, become compromised and be permanently disfigured. Plastic or other stocks will simply melt.
His only recommendation for fire proofing paperwork inside a safe, is to put all those items in another small fire proof box, then put them into the gun safe.
Just an FYI...........
It appears that those really thick pins that lock the door, are very short and not connected to a large gear system inside. Actually they're connected to very thin metal rods that make up the tracking system. Therefore very easily opened in about 10 minutes by an amateur with a couple pry bars. Those large pins are actually only as long as what we see sticking out the door.
The safe professional states that safes basically fail because the safe body and the door body is too thin. It appears most modern gun safes are built with thinner 14-gauge steel, when it really needs to be a minimum of 10-gauge steel, much heavier and nearly impossible to pry open. Of course a thief with metal cutting equipment, saws and torches, is going to get into any of them.
His next complaint is about the cheap China built digital locks on the units. He states locksmiths make a lot of money opening them. He recommends changing these cheap digital locks to locks from S&G or KaGard. I know I had to have a locksmith open a safe, once. Its not cheap!
His next complaint is about fire protection. He states that only a safe with an UL Class 350 rating, is actually fireproof, but such safes are not available for retail. He states that paper will ignite at 451° and if the inside temp reaches that, all papers within the safe will ignite, including money. Wood stocks are finished with petroleum-based stains and oils, which are very likely to burn, become compromised and be permanently disfigured. Plastic or other stocks will simply melt.
His only recommendation for fire proofing paperwork inside a safe, is to put all those items in another small fire proof box, then put them into the gun safe.
Just an FYI...........
12-28-2017, 07:26 AM
#2
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,382
Sounds like good advice, especially on the fireproofing. Nothing is 100% foolproof.
On a personal/professional level, I know of 1 incident where thieves had an entire weekend with a safe in a garage while the homeowner was gone on business at a gun show. The homeowner owns a gun shop and sells Fort Knox safes. After a weekend of trying, the thieves were not able to break into the gun safe.
I've seen pictures, looked at the safe in person, talked with the home/business owner and with Deputy who investigated the crime and later arrested the suspects. The Deputy was flat out amazed and said he was going to buy a Fort Knox safe. The business/home owner said he will always have a Fort Knox safe.
I've talked about safe security with that business owner and others who sell and/or service gun safes. Yes, a tech who knows what they are doing can get into a safe. Don't ask me how I know this. (Hint--Cannon safes leave a lot to be desired). But it takes a lot of time, a lot of training and getting a background check, etc. One locksmith that I talked with extensively recommended Liberty safes because of their inner workings and how they are made.
Again, nothing is foolproof but I've also not seen nor heard of a lot of safes being broken into by thieves.
On a personal/professional level, I know of 1 incident where thieves had an entire weekend with a safe in a garage while the homeowner was gone on business at a gun show. The homeowner owns a gun shop and sells Fort Knox safes. After a weekend of trying, the thieves were not able to break into the gun safe.
I've seen pictures, looked at the safe in person, talked with the home/business owner and with Deputy who investigated the crime and later arrested the suspects. The Deputy was flat out amazed and said he was going to buy a Fort Knox safe. The business/home owner said he will always have a Fort Knox safe.
I've talked about safe security with that business owner and others who sell and/or service gun safes. Yes, a tech who knows what they are doing can get into a safe. Don't ask me how I know this. (Hint--Cannon safes leave a lot to be desired). But it takes a lot of time, a lot of training and getting a background check, etc. One locksmith that I talked with extensively recommended Liberty safes because of their inner workings and how they are made.
Again, nothing is foolproof but I've also not seen nor heard of a lot of safes being broken into by thieves.
12-28-2017, 07:27 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,436
I have never believed my gun safe would keep out a person who was determined to get into it and had the tools and experience to do so and I never bothered with the fire brick lining either because after the safe get so how the guns are going to be crap anyway in a big oven and I have insurance to replace the stuff in the safes. What the safes do is to discourage your average burglar who wants to get in and get out as fast as they can so they don't mess around trying to break into a safe. The delay is longer than momentary and it is noisy, neither of which is what a burglar wants.
12-28-2017, 07:55 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
Locally a person has a complete log vacation home. Inside his home he had a very large firearm safe with a number of firearms inside.
He came back and found that someone had taken a chain saw to his log home, cut the side wall out and evidently tipped the safe over into a truck or trailer.
Can't stop them if they're determined.
He came back and found that someone had taken a chain saw to his log home, cut the side wall out and evidently tipped the safe over into a truck or trailer.
Can't stop them if they're determined.
12-28-2017, 08:05 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
12-28-2017, 09:12 AM
#6
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trumbull County, Ohio
Posts: 9,520
Given enough time, nothing is really safe. A safe prevents the grab and run burglaries. Which is most of them.
A safe, with a home alarm system goes a long way. I have a quality fire safe that I keep important guns (high value, family guns, etc) and paperwork and some cash in. Then I have several locking cabinets that I keep cheap stuff in. The goal is to delay them long enough for the alarm system to do it's job. In our rural area that's about 20 minutes. But most will bail when the alarm starts anyway.
-Jake
A safe, with a home alarm system goes a long way. I have a quality fire safe that I keep important guns (high value, family guns, etc) and paperwork and some cash in. Then I have several locking cabinets that I keep cheap stuff in. The goal is to delay them long enough for the alarm system to do it's job. In our rural area that's about 20 minutes. But most will bail when the alarm starts anyway.
-Jake
12-29-2017, 10:10 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
FYI, most home owners insurance will only cover a small amount for guns, if you have many or higher end guns, you really need gun insurance, or you can be screwed real fast in a fire
I had a gun shop and known many folks that had fire's and heard the nightmares they went though, thinking they were covered only to find out after the fact they were not for all they had
if your agent says there COVERED< get it in writing
guys I knew were told they were good and ended UP being true and they could't prove what agent said to them,
I know MY homeowners wasn't covering all mine, so I have added gun coverage
to do so!insurance
I had a gun shop and known many folks that had fire's and heard the nightmares they went though, thinking they were covered only to find out after the fact they were not for all they had
if your agent says there COVERED< get it in writing
guys I knew were told they were good and ended UP being true and they could't prove what agent said to them,
I know MY homeowners wasn't covering all mine, so I have added gun coverage
to do so!insurance
12-29-2017, 10:55 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Near a lake with no fish
Posts: 1,077
FYI, most home owners insurance will only cover a small amount for guns, if you have many or higher end guns, you really need gun insurance, or you can be screwed real fast in a fire
I had a gun shop and known many folks that had fire's and heard the nightmares they went though, thinking they were covered only to find out after the fact they were not for all they had
if your agent says there COVERED< get it in writing
guys I knew were told they were good and ended UP being true and they could't prove what agent said to them,
I know MY homeowners wasn't covering all mine, so I have added gun coverage
to do so!insurance
I had a gun shop and known many folks that had fire's and heard the nightmares they went though, thinking they were covered only to find out after the fact they were not for all they had
if your agent says there COVERED< get it in writing
guys I knew were told they were good and ended UP being true and they could't prove what agent said to them,
I know MY homeowners wasn't covering all mine, so I have added gun coverage
to do so!insurance
12-30-2017, 03:52 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,743
maybe not the best advice here, but I have heard of a few guys that whena fire hit, and the basic home owners policy didn;t cover GUNS at value, they told Ins. co.'s that they were just GUN parts and NOT whole guns, as guns can add up to way more value if you break down into just parts, (barrel, stock, trigger parts, bolts,washers screws,and etc/) than as a whole??, so food for thought!
if ever not happy with claim offer on whole guns LOL
if ever not happy with claim offer on whole guns LOL
