Knight Quality, Warranty, & Service?????
 

In all honesty I have to say that any time I sent an e-mail to knight that they were very quick to send me a shipping tag to send my gun back to them to service. Obviously as you will see, that was not enough to pacify me.

I bought a Knight Mountaineer 9/9/16, I will try to keep this short. Upon receiving it I took the breech plug out, when I put it back in the bolt would not close. Sent it back to knight, they checked bolt and sent back. Again, I removed breech plug and after reinstalling bolt would not close again. Got my socket and drive and forced breech plug to turn in again until it stopped, had to do this twice more and bolt would close to battery. I sent gun back to knight and explained above. They ran a tap in the breech threads of the barrel and said it was fixed and shipped gun back to me. When I got my gun back the Remington 3 screw trigger assembly had been removed and a knight trigger assy with 5 lb pull was on my gun. Breech plugs were still bad. I sent gun back and told them I wanted my Remington trigger assy back and the breech plugs fixed or barrel replaced. A Representative of Knight called me and told me they could see nothing wrong with the breech threads, also that the trigger assembly was the correct one for my gun, they sent the gun back. I figured that was the end of my "WARRANTY", they were not interested in the fact that someone had stolen a nice trigger assembly and put on a defective one. Ultimately, I had to buy a trigger assembly from Numrich as the one knight gave me would not hold an adjustment, never could get trigger pull below 4 lb. Then I started shooting the gun, POS. Groups all over the place could barely hold a 3-inch group at 100 yds., and that was with a new breech plug. I tried numerous bullets, sabots and powder loads, I have a CVA Accura V2 & LR, a T/C Encore Pro hunter and a Traditions Strikefire. Any of them would make the knight look sick. Since I honestly couldn't sell the gun as it was I bought a new barrel thinking I could at least salvage something of the gun. When I got the new barrel the little plunger on the side of the barrel that releases the bolt fell apart and the shaft fell into the gun. Luckily the bolt was out and I put some blue Loctite on the little threads and put it back together. Now I feel I am ready to shoot, not so fast. Someone on the forum said a knight bare primer breech plug would only get about 100 shots with 110 grains of BH. I checked my breech plug and with less than 100 shots Flash hole was toast. GM54-120 put me onto Bestill and I as I couldn't afford as many breech plugs from knight (and not wanting to support knight) as I would need, I sent my gun to Bestill. Also, I asked him to take a look at my bolt operation as it sticks when trying to pull it back so you can load another primer. A great effort is required most of the time.
Anybody want to argue with me as to if knight builds a quality gun or not. Not only is their service bad, you may not get your same gun back after they "work on it". Sorry part is management doesn't care.
Bestill could probably have built me a custom with the money I have in this gun.
In any event I am in a rage, I did have to buy a trigger assembly, a barrel & fix it, a decent breech plug and have my bolt looked at and hopefully repaired.
I gag whenever anyone says Knight makes a quality product. Nuf said.

With a great amount of luck, when I get the barrel back and am able to shoot it, maybe, just maybe the gun will be a shooter. There will be no excuses if it is not as there is nothing else to fix.

Stick with CVA. You will be much happier

The barrel on my Knight Vision is a-bit undersized. Have a hard time cleaning the bore with patch and bore brush. Tight as can be.

Other than that, I'm very happy with Knight. Thanks for the heads-up on the Knight bare-primer breechplug life expectancy with hot loads. I wasn't aware they are so short-lived. Will keep an eye on the hole slowly enlarging. Takes me a few years to accumulate 100 shots on any individual ML I have. I never use more than 100gr of powder and surely not a hot-igniter powder like Blackhorn anymore.

Knight has never used a Remington 3 screw trigger. in fact a
Remington trigger will not work in a Knight.

I think they removed the original Knight 3 screw trigger and replaced it with a new Timney trigger.
These are the old Knight triggers



The trigger on the right is probably the trigger you had...

If this is the trigger you now have it is a much better trigger than the older copies of the Timney



If you have the new red trigger in your rifle Knight did you a favor... it is a much better trigger than the original. It is also a 3 screw trigger. 2 of the screws a vary obvious - one on the back and one on the front. The third screw is on the front also above the first screw. If you look close you will see a very small hole that a small Allen wrench inserts in to - to adjust 'over travel' which rarely needs adjusting.

To bad you are having these problem - it is really not the norm... And you are aware if you do not put the bolt back together correctly with have point not set in the detent you will not be able to close the bolt.

New Mountaineer Ultralight
 

My new rifle came in November. Trigger pull of the red Timney trigger was 3½ pounds, so i adjusted it until it was a perfect 1½
pounds. It is wonderful. It does a two foot drop to concrete without letting go.

The Quick Release Knight Rifle Detent Screw came apart whilst shooting first time out, but luck was good, and somehow i found the
loose part. Hard to understand why it was loose, but now it is back together, and working good.

Knight breech plugs with the brazed vent wear ridiculously quick. It seems a plug without the brazed vent liner would last about
three times longer. Carbide end mills, and a carbide spotting drill allowed me to remove the very hard brazed vent liner.
Then a 10-32 tap was ruined chasing the threads so a new removable vent liner could be used. The next step was shim the primer socket with a 0.005" shim to correct the slightly loose head space. Now there is zero blow by using W209 primer. The bolt opens easily after firing, and doesn't get dirty with soot. Now the breech plug with a removable vent liner, and zero blow by should be good for a jillion shots. ☺

The rifle is plenty accurate, and is a joy to carry, but does weigh more than the advertised six pounds. It has been carried
into the field 22 times this month. Today i found a real nice heavy antlered buck that a herd of coyotes totally ate, and
saw a hot lion track in the fresh snow about 2½ mile north of the Sugar Shack, East of 385.





















_

It seems that to have a good Knight any more you have to struggle a while first. Did not used to be that way.

The triggers that you said were the old ones is the trigger that they installed in my gun. The trigger they took off as per your post Mon Aug 27, 2012 you called it a Remington Walker trigger. Thread titled "Adjusting Mountaineer Trigger" I saved it for reference if I had to adjust my trigger. But trigger pull was 3 lb and so good that I was not going to fool with it. I did not buy the Mountaineer from Knight, I bought it from Sportsman Warehouse, truthfully I think I got an older gun, On the new barrel the specifications Concerning the breech plug and the barrel threads and the area around it were much tighter. I was using a 3/8" Deepwell to install and remove the breech plug in the old barrel. I Had to go to a 1/4" deepwell so my socket wouldn't be shoved off the breech plug as I installed it.

Yes I am aware that the detent has to be in the right place, thanks. One problem I am having now is after the bolt is taken out of battery, most of the time you can't pull it back to remove the spent primer and install a new primer. The fired primer is not stuck in the breech plug or the bolt face either. The bolt will move back and then locks up, it takes a lot of effort and the little bolt release on the side that allows you to take the bolt out, takes a beating when the bolt comes back.

One other note: Knight didn't do me any favors regardless of what type of trigger Assembly they replaced mine with, as the trigger was not functional and dangerous in my opinion. That is why I bought a trigger Assembly from Numrich. Also The trigger assembly I bought looked exactly like the ones that you said were the old ones.

I did not buy the barrel from Numrich, I called Knight and asked them if their barrel kits they sell were from current production run barrels, they said yes. It killed me to do it, but I didn't want to chance getting an old "New" barrel. I bought the new barrel from Knight!! Go Figure.

You are correct I probably did because it adjusts just like the Walker trigger. I do apologize if I miss-lead you on that.

Gosh! I have never been able to use a 3/8" drive to remove the BP - but in all honesty I do not even remember trying. I have always used a 1/4" drive with extension and 7/16" deep socket and they just barely fit.




[quote] I Had to go to a 1/4" deepwell so my socket wouldn't be shoved off the breech plug as I installed it.

Could you try this... remove the hammer assembly from the bolt. Install the bolt in the rifle and work the bolt. It should open/close handle drop down with no effort at all.

This is also a good test for the depth of the breech plug... if it is not seated in the barrel deep enough the bolt (without hammer assembly) will insert and draw back just fine but it will not just drop down to the fully closed position as the bolt shroud will run into the breech plug nut.

This is also a problem that can cause the bolt to not seat correctly or lift very difficult. Depending on how far in you screw the hammer assembly there are bolt housing and hammers that will lock up themselves up. If you screw the secondary safety all the way in, and I mean in tight and then screw the hammer assembly into the bolt until it stops. Depending on where it stops will determine how far to turn it back. If when you turn the hammer in and it passes the detent by up to a 3/4 turn you often have to turn the hammer assembly back out 1 full turn + the amount it passed by then loosen the secondary safety. The hammer shroud has to have a small space between it and the bolt housing....

Correct several years ago Knight had another company furnish them with triggers that looked like and function like Timneys...

I am not sure why you felt the new trigger was a problem but if t were adjusted correctly it truly is a better trigger than the contract copy.

I would give anything (well not really) to look at your rifle - I would really like to know what is going on...

mike

[QUOTE=sabotloader;4323712]You are correct I probably did because it adjusts just like the Walker trigger. I do apologize if I miss-lead you on that.



Gosh! I have never been able to use a 3/8" drive to remove the BP - but in all honesty I do not even remember trying. I have always used a 1/4" drive with extension and 7/16" deep socket and they just barely fit.




I have already shipped the rifle to Bestill for a breech plug, I also asked him to check and repair the bolt operation if possible. The trigger assembly knight put on had a 5 lb trigger pull, I adjusted the trigger pull to per your instructions. I set it at 3 lbs. When I tested the trigger pull NUMEROUS TIMES the lbs. were all over the place. I tried re adjusting several times and no good results were forth coming, and many reading in a not so safe range. I considered the trigger to be dangerous and with my experience if I wanted to keep the gun I had to replace it, if I wanted to shoot it. That was my first mistake.
If I knew you would have been willing to look at the rifle I would have paid shipping to and from and for your time and effort. I enjoy reading your post and put a lot of stock in what you say. Truth be known it was You and Ronlaughlin that led me to consider buying a knight rifle. Don't get me wrong I'm not blaming you all for anything! Ha Ha

That’s a very true statement and I’ll tell you why. Nobody cared about blow back on ML’S years ago. They just thought it’s a ML and that’s what comes with it. Now it’s all about head spacing and clean primers for easy extraction.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have quite a few Knights all have been excellent both in quality and accuracy. I guess with anything in life, once in a while there is a bad one. Sounds like unfortunately you got it. I am disappointed they didn't seem to take better care of you. Hopefully Bestill will be able to fix you up.

I think you are right, but Knight said they have a warranty, they also guaranteed a good group as far out as 200 yards. They should not have taken my Remington trigger assembly off and installed a defective one. Then management ignored any reference to that issue, they absolutely didn't want to talk about it. Also due to 2 issues they should have replaced the barrel, 1) because of the defective breech plug threads in the barrel. 2) Because the gun did not group as they warranted. When a Company refuses to make issues right according to their warranty, one has no recourse except to spread the word. I just hope no one else runs into a knight rifle like mine, they will be in for a rude awakening.

You have only two problems.

1-The threads in your barrel are rough from the bore coating. Knight should always run a tap in them before shipping out and head spacing the rifle.

2- Your gun is not properly head spaced. If it was head spaced properly, or you new how to do it. The sticking primers and accuracy issues would not exist.

When Bestil is done with it, it will be properly head spaced and shoot as good if not better then any other ML you ever used.

I know when threads are damaged, and thank you for reminding me that the gun was a filthy shooter and I had to shim the breech plug .020 to clean it up, another point about no knight quality. Also, I don't think I mentioned anything about primers sticking, in the breech plug or the bolt face. Is the knight guns so lousy with that issue that it is just assumed. sounds like another quality control issue knight should address, CVA did.

Ive heard of tons of new CVAs that were filthy in the breach after firing. They only get dirty one way im aware of...blowby.

It sure isnt something unique to Knights.

The first CVA I bought the Accura V2 was a filthy shooter, a few years ago I bought the Accura LR, right out of the box, the firing pin bushing was flush with the breach face. I was a little skeptical, but when I got to the range all my concerns were gone, it was a very clean shooter using W209 primers. I don't know about other new CVA guns but if the Accura LR is any indication, I would say CVA has cleaned up their act.

I'm fairly new to inlines so I am by far no expert. But I do have a pretty fair knowledge of firearms and their workings. All this talk of blowby in any factory rifle isn't so much the fault of the factories as it is the manufacturers of 209 primers. If they would standardize primer sizes to an exact size then the factories could resolve headspace issues, the main cause of blowby in my understanding, easily and effectively. It is impossible for any manufacturer of factory rifles to get perfect crush since not a single primer manufacturer puts out the exact same size primers. While your W209 primers may not have blowby issues, a Fed209m, or a CCI209 probably would. Again, from my limited knowledge of inlines, this is an issue that everyone has to deal with in all of them. Now, as to your trigger reference, when you sent that rifle in to Knight, that trigger you sent in on the rifle was their trigger not yours. When you send anything in for warranty work, it all becomes the property of the manufacturer and they will do with it whatever they feel they need to to fix any issues. That wasn't a trigger you installed, it was a trigger they installed at the point of manufacturing.

The thing in a nut shell with the trigger assembly was that the gun was sent back to knight for issues first regarding the Bolt not closing to battery, and then sent back again for bad breech plug thread issues in the barrel.
There was never a time when I mentioned there was any issues with the trigger assembly. The function of the trigger assembly was outstanding. You are correct, someone at knight did literally consider the trigger assembly theirs. I could understand them wanting it, it was a quality unit, the least they could have done would have been for them to install a current functional production of the trigger assembly that was advertised at the time I bought the rifle. Had they done so I might have thought they did me a favor. I do think that the rifle I purchased from Sportsman Warehouse had been lying around for awhile somewhere and was an older production of Knight Rifles. I wish I had bought the rifle directly from Knight.
One reason I think this, besides the type of trigger assembly that was in the gun I purchased, is that the new barrel I purchased has tighter tolerances in the Breech Plug area of the barrel. I did not buy the barrel from Numerich because I didn't want one that had been lying around for awhile. I called Knight to verify this before purchasing the new replacement barrel. Not saying the one from Numerich would have problems or would not have worked, just that I wanted a barrel that was produced by current model year production standards.
To recap, the gun was never sent to knight for trigger issues, I should have sent the barrel to knight, like Bestill creations requested the barrel to be sent to them, "Stripped down to nothing but the Bolt and the Barrel". Then I would only have had barrel issues.

So what did you do with your old barrel? Maybe Bestill can get that squared away for you also. Then you only have to scrounge up the rest of the parts to build a 2nd rifle. I agree, they should not have done anything with your trigger.

I don't keep trash laying around, it killed me, but I set it out with the garbage. I couldn't afford to put another knight mountaineer together, the only thing I had to work with was a stock, and some sights, I'm just praying that the one I have built is a shooter. It would destroy me to have to put it in the garbage!!! I just hope nothing happens to my car, with all the parts on a car, I would have to jack the radiator cap up and pull another car under it. Merry Christmas

Unfortunately, it sounds as if all your initial problems with the bolt not closing was due to your 3/8" drive socket (I had to turn mine down, then found a 1/4" drive works great) the larger 3/8" hits on the thread in the action. This gave you a bad taste right off the bat, but may have just been you?
I too am surprised you bought another Mtnr barrel - guaranteed no difference in tolerances from GM.
As, to your trigger. Sad, but I don't think anyone took you trigger as what Sabotloader has shown are what they offer is what you have and had. I could imagine they took it off when disassembling the rifle and inadvertently put a different one on.. As to defective, if it was like the other issues you have stated - doubtful you took the time to adjust.
Now, you trashed which was most likely a perfectly good barrel?
I bet their experience was as good as yours.

Bought a CVA. No good but they fixed you up .
Bought a Traditions , again no good but they fixed you up
Bought a Knight , again no good . They fixed you up but not to your satisfaction
I think we see the real problem .

You are right about the 3/8" deep well, as you screw the breech plug in with it, it is slowly pushed off the 7/16" head of the breech plug. If you have to use a 1/4" deepwell to install your breech plug it means one thing. Your barrel is a current production barrel. The 3/8" deepwell won't work on it. If it will it means you have an older production barrel, plus that means there is a difference in tolerance.
If you don't know what my original trigger looked like, and you don't know what was put on my gun by knight, how can you possibly say "no one took my trigger". Every thing else you said is only your opinions, and we all know what opinions are. As far as what sabatloader has to say I have already posted to him and have his opinions, I have a lot of respect for what Sabotloader says but I doubt he gave you a picture of what was on my gun. still just your opinion. The only fix for the barrel would be custom work to create a custom breech plug, then drill and cut new threads in the barrel for the new breech plug. I would not go that route, putting good money into a bad barrel. I chose to put that money with a little more and get a new barrel, Merry Christmas

We all appreciate Mike's knowledge.

Actually I don't think the trigger was a new one, I think it was a POS that they had laying around, and people infer then that it was a good trigger assembly. How does anyone know it was a good trigger assembly that just needed adjusting. Ultimately I shot the gun with the POS at 5 pounds trigger pull, groups were a POS. I figured I had to adjust the POS if I wanted a good group, testing the trigger after adjusting the trigger pounds were all over the place, POS trigger. I ordered a new one and ultimately adjusted it to 2lb 13 oz. It was a good trigger assembly. By the way Knight says a trigger adjustment below 3 pounds will void your warranty. Give me a break, With knights warranty I know "I am on my own". Every body keeps talking about the triggers but no one actually knows what trigger I had on my gun when I bought it. It was a rectangular, dark, 3 adjustment pin trigger assembly. I have yet to see a picture of it. But sabot loader had pictures that looked about like what Knight put on my gun, a 2 pin adjustable trigger assembly, he called them the old trigger assemblies. You can quote me to death, I know what was on my gun when I bought it. In answering sabotloaders post I told him the old trigger assemblies looked close to what I had on my gun. He showed me a Current production of the trigger assembly that comes with the Mountaineer and it was red, nothing like what was on my gun when I bought it and nothing like what knight put on my gun when someone at knight stole my trigger assembly, I have a good idea who took it too. But since I can't prove it I will Keep that to myself. I hope we are done talking about the trigger assembly, it is a worn out subject. Lets talk about knights customer service, or quality! Better yet lets talk about how they warrant their product. There is more going on in this thread besides a POS trigger assembly.

I'm surprised Knight Inc didn't refuse to work on your gun, once they saw that aftermarket trigger on it. Some manufacturers would have taken one look at your gun and returned it to you, minus any repair shop fingerprints.

Some even disqualify you from warranty service, all because you customized by changing-out parts for 3rd party parts.

Whenever I have-had problems and the gun needed to go back to the manufacturer, it always contained 100% original manufacturer parts in it, when shipped to them.

After I bought the trigger from Numrich and installed and adjusted it, it worked great. By that time I had figured out that I didn't have a warranty and I was on my own. The Trigger assembly I purchased was a knight trigger assembly. After that the gun never saw the inside of knights establishment, I didn't want to loose another good trigger assembly and get another POS trigger assembly installed, with out me requesting it. Besides I could only afford to buy so many $248.00 trigger assemblies for that gun.

chronological order of instanses of the thread
 

I have this posted on another forum as an answer to a post about this thread. I will post it here to help people stop mixing up things that occurred.

Got the gun new in the box, first thing I did was to check the trigger pull it was great
Installed breech plug back in the barrel, put bolt in, nothing I did would get the bolt to close to battery
I sent the gun back to knight
they sent the gun back to me saying they had checked the bolt and everything was ok.
I checked the bolt and it worked. sometimes I would have to jerk it back but figured it would wear in
disassembled gun to clean before going to range, when done I reinstalled the breech plug and bolt would not close to battery again, I knew something was up that is when I got my socket and drive, you know the rest of that story.
I sent the gun back to knight describing how I had to turn the breech plug in with a 1/4" drive with a lot of force 3 separate times before it actually bottomed out and bolt would go to battery.
That is when they sent the gun back to me saying it was OK they had run a tap in the breech plug threads.
I had checked the trigger pull on the original trigger, it was 3+ pounds. For some reason when I got the gun back from knight, I pulled the trigger and knew something was wrong, I got my trigger lb gauge and checked it and it was 5 pounds. I knew something was wrong so I disassembled my gun and here was this POS trigger.
At that point I boxed the gun up again and sent it back to knight saying that When I screwed in the breech plug that I could feel the threads catching in the 3 spots and I didn't feel the breech plug threads in the barrel were good. I also informed them that someone had stolen my trigger assembly when my gun was in their care, and I wanted it back.
Shortly after they received the gun I got a call, I assumed it was from management, I was told they could find nothing wrong with the breech plug threads in the barrel. I asked him what about my trigger assembly being stolen and was told that the trigger assembly on my rifle was the one that it was suppose to have. My trigger assembly was rectangular and dark, looked nothing like the trigger assembly that was put on my rifle. At that point I knew that I had no warranty.
The gun was shipped back to me, I popped a W209 primer in the gun, it came out coal black, I looked up sabotloaders procedure for shimming a bare primer breech plug. I didn't really like doing it because I had had discussions with Frontieer Gander about shimming. In any event I had to shim it .020 before I could shoot a primer off with no load and have the primer come out clean, .002 crush.
Then I went to the range, after firing the breech area was dirity, primers were clean. Sounded like blowing by the breech plug threads to me. Groups were horrible. thought maybe it was the hard trigger pull. At home cleaned the gun, took out breech plug, it was sooted up. Cleaned and tried to adjust trigger pull, no matter what I did when testing pounds were all over the place.
Ordered Trigger From Numrich, got it put it on and adjusted it to 2lb 8oz tested trigger pull, a little creep and pounds varring a little, Saw something in a pitcher where the allen screw was called creep adjustment. Knight says to never adjust trigger pull below 3 pounds maybe a little higher, they say they will void your warranty, well since I didn't have a warranty I had nothing to loose. I started slowly adjusting up the trigger pull up while adjusting the allen screw in until it would fire and backed out 1/4 turn. and rechecked. It was a long process and when I got to 2 lb 13 oz, as I would check the trigger pull I didn't feel the creep anymore that is where I left it.
I took it to the range again, trigger pull was great, shot like POS, when I cleaned it at home more soot on the breech plug.
I ordered the new barrel since my warranty was toast, when I got it you know the story about the deep well sockets, I put it all together and was ready to shoot it. I read a post that said the bare primer breech plugs would only last about 100 shots, that got me to thinking I had probably bumped up there close to that. So I went to check my breech plug and It had grown .004, I replace all the breech plugs in my other guns when they get there. I got on line and GM54-120 referred me to Bestill Custimes that could make me a Breech plug. Jeff said they would last about 4 to 5 hundred rounds. That was good enough for me so I sent my muzzleloader barrel to him. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Still have not shot the new barrel yet!

Knight has only used 3 triggers and they all had associations with Timney. Tom Vehr worked for Timney for many years. Ive seen 2 fully adjustable. One with a wide trigger and one the same as the standard trigger. I bought a wide shoe (Target model) directly from Knight back when the new owners first took over. IIRC i didnt pay over $100 for it and its one dam fine trigger.


1)Timney (MK85 and maybe a few others)
2)In house made by Tom Vehr starting in 1995
3)Vehr Manufacturing/Velocity Trigger (also Tom Vehr)
4)And now Timney again but ONLY available in new rifle from Knight. As far as i know you can NOT buy a new Timney by itself for the next couple years or more.

Any of them a rectangular, dark trigger assembly with 3 adjusting screws?

Nope, not in any of my Knights. Ive had Elites as early as 3 digit and 4 digit serial numbers. An Extreme and 2 "target" triggers, one came in my GMB54-120. Another cheaper one in my DISC original 45.

All were silver in color. Maybe its was some kind of SG special order batch. They sold a 45cal Wolverine with a light contour barrel i never saw anywhere else too.

I'd hate to think how old the knight mountaineer was that I bought. It was definitely new in the box, "I think"

Mountaineers were not released until PI took over as the new owners. The prototype was called the Knight Ultimate Slam and none were ever sold as far as i know. So that would mean none were made prior to about 2011 except for a few prototypes by the older Knight.

in the last 3 threads you posted about Knight, CVA, and Traditions warranty. All the guns had to be sent back, and in the post on group size TC is added to the equation..

you make the below statement

quote:
over the years T/C replaced 3 barrels on the renegade because the group opened up to 4" @ 100. Getting the barrels replaced was like pulling teeth, but T/C came thru

end of quote

Do you send every muzzleloader back for replacement. Sure looks like you are a gun sellers worst nightmare.

I've had my Renegade for a pretty good number of years and you are now stepping into my world of sidelocks. I also know several people with Renegades in both .50 and .45 and neither they nor I have ever had a barrel issue. And we all have thousands of rounds through them. I can still keep PRB's under 2 inches at 100 yards with mine. Under an inch with XTP's, the only sabot the thing will shoot worth a damn, is still easily attainable. I doubt seriously you had a barrel issue but an operator issue in not knowing how to clean properly or more than likely not knowing how to shoot the thing properly. The Renegade is one of TC's best shooting rifles of all their productions. I am starting to suspect all your posts to be some sort of brand bashing attempts.

I also did a LOT of shooting with my renegade, it was the only gun I had at the time, I couldn't rotate guns on the range. Barrels going bad on the T/C renegade in my opinion, according to what a knight representative said, was a benefit of using bore butter, and yes it appears you are probably correct, I am sorry about my luck too. But that does not negate a warranty. The fact that T/C had the chance to inspect my barrels and then decide to replace them should tell you a lot. I indulged you so lets get back to the content of this thread.

You didn't say if you used Bore Butter, Not according to T/C as they ultimately agreed with me, 3 separate times. After I QUIT using bore butter my problems with my renegade barrel ceased, T/C didn't have to replace any more barrels. As stated to this day I still have the renegade and it will still shoot 1" groups @ 100 yards. Seems like the knight representative was right, I quit using bore butter. If he wasn't T/C was overly generous with their warranty. Maybe I should have started a thread for T/C Warranty, Quality & Customer service, for before S&W took them over. But I cannot slam S&W as I have had no issues with any of their guns since. No reason the contact them.
you don't even know my cleaning procedure, that is not even an issue of this thread. How can you critique my cleaning procedure. Also it is no great secret on how to shoot a muzzleloader, push the bullet down firmly on the powder, put a cap on the barrel, point, aim and shoot. How could that in itself damage a muzzleloader barrel. I STILL say it was the T/C Bore butter. I did make my own T/C Maxie bullets, and sent some with my shot out gun barrel back to T/C. When they sent me a new barrel back, they sent me a note with the gun saying they had never seen such quality in a cast Maxie bullet. After casting, I weigh every bullet, I threw out the high and low side of the run and kept all other bullets. I also culled them on looks. I doubt very seriously it had anything to do with my shooting. But I appreciate the input
Also, have you heard me slam CVA, Traditions or T/C? With my recommendations for their Warranty, Quality and Customer Service over the years, I have probably sold a lot of guns for them. I'll bet they have me insured because it would be a loss to them if something happened to me! ! ! Have A Happy New Year. I allowed you to pull me off subject, lets get back to this thread.

Oh there is so much more to shooting a traditional type muzzleloader than just point and shoot. Especially with a DB trigger setup such as on a Renegade. Hand position, stock position, form, breathing, follow through, and much more. I will agree that Bore Butter is very bad for barrels when people just use hot soapy water to clean. BB has ingredients in it that will cause buildup that doesn't come out with just soap and water. A good water based solvent needs to be used when using BB. I currently use my own little concoction for lube when using my Maxi's and PRB's and I also run around 20-30 strokes of JB bore paste every 200 or so rounds.
And yes sir, cleaning procedures can and will affect accuracy as easily as improperly putting it back together. Inconsistent pressures on the wedge key when putting the stock and barrel back together can throw the accuracy to hell. Blown out nipple, same thing.

I am not really wanting to get off the subject of this thread, but I will respond again. As the renegade was my first gun I did everything the manufacture recommended, right down to the cleaning procedure. I can appreciate your cleaning procedure, and wish I had some of your concoction back then. I wish I had someone to recommend it to me when I was shooting my renegade a lot and using bore butter, maybe it would have saved me a lot of grief. Again a shooting technique, even though bad and will definitely effect the group size, it will never damage a barrel. As long as loading procedures recommended by the manufacture are followed.
Just for your information, I recently read an article that said if you soaked a barrel fouled by bore butter for 2 or 3 days in soap and water, then use a brass brush, the bore butter would come out in chunks. I don't know if it is true or not, but my daughter has a .45 cal Cherokee that the same thing happened to, this was after T/C quit handling traditional guns. T/C offered to refund the money paid for the Cherokee. My daughter didn't want to do this, I am thinking about trying the procedure on it. Just have to be careful I don't loose a brush in the barrel. Also, I had a bad nipple Flash Hole once, it really effected accuracy but didn't damage the barrel, I installed a new one and went right back to shooting good groups. Have A Happy New Year.

A bore brushed, soapy water bucket-bath should remove all traces of bore butter. Doing the same bathing procedure with a ramrod jag, instead of a bore brush, will not be as effective in removal.

Best remedy?..... ditch the Bore Butter and clean/oil your muzzleloaders like you would your centerfire rifles. Run two patches of 90% alcohol to rid the bore of oils, before shooting it again at the range.

If hunting up-north, I use one of two products that have a small amount of bore preservative in it to swab.
That way the gun will never show signs of rust, shooting it 1-2 a day for an entire week of hunting. Always follow the wet swab with both sides of two dry patches.Breechplug should be open when swabbing, with no spent 209 primer in the breechplug face.

1) Birchwood Casey 2 In 1 Bore Scrubber/Cleaner
2) Butch's Blackpowder Bore Shine.