Need advice from yall
 

I own a cva optima (2 yrs old) with a 3x9 leupold, last year i was shootin it with winchester 209 primers, 2 triple seven pellets, and the 245 grain powerbelts green tip. I shot a few deer with this set up and have never gotten a good blood trail, even with double lung shots. I even lost a few deer due to no blood. I have lost all confidence in this gun and ammo. After sum research alot of others have had similar complaints about PB. I recently bought sum hornady xtp mags. Any experience with the xtp mags? I hear alot of yall talk about blackhorn. Should i switch to BH? Also does anyone own a Thompson Center and have any suggestions, i want to get rid of my optima b/c of lack of confidence in it. Sorry for the long post guys

Its probably not the gun. The first thing is the Power belts many of us have had bad experiences with them , everything from fragmenting on the surface to very poor accuracy. The second major cause of no blood is high hits, when you get a high double lung hit they bleed inside and you are left with a difficult situation.
Suggestions:
First the bullet Lehigh Bloodline 250 grain has done extremely well for me, expensive but the best for hunting[my opinion have used them since they came on the market. next the powder , try Blackhorn about 110 or a bit more this would increase your velocity considerable which increases the damage done with a good bullet.
The Harvester 300grain or less sabot is usually a good match for the CVA guns and that bullet if to tight use the crush-rib. For practice the XTP 250 grain is low priced and a good bullet.
PS study deer if you place your bullet just over the top of the heart in the large arteries there your problems will be much less.

It is not the rifle. I have the same rifle. I am going to make a guess and suggest you were pushing the PowerBelts too hard. Most suggest a 80 grain max load. Also ditch the pellets. It is much more cost effect to shoot loose powder. Now that Hornady XTP is a good bullet. From all I read it is a real deer taker. With my Optima I shoot a 260 grain Scorpion Funnel nose made by Hornady. But the funny thing is, I have never taken a deer with them. Not from lack of trying mind you. It seems when I hunt with an inline I never see anything. I take a traditional round ball rifle out and always see deer.

Here I my suggestions. Get loose powder. My Optima likes 90 grains of powder with an XTP. Shoot that at a deer and then let us know what happens. Now I have shot a lot of powerbelts. And I have seen a lot of deer taken with them. I find them very accurate. But I do think there are better bullets. One of my favorite bullets (but they are expensive) is the Barnes MZ 250 grain.

A 50cal 245gr bullet is going to have a horrible sectional density no matter what you try. Why people even try to use a 50cal lead bullet that light is beyond me.

There is a reason you dont see lead bullets that light loaded in 50A&E or 500S&W and you found out first hand why. No matter what you try you will end up with a pancake and/or just fragments after impact.

If you just cant resist the overwhelming urge to use a PowerBelt, move upto a 300gr or heavier and don't push them too fast.

Going to a XTP MAG might put you on the other end of a 2 pellet load. Not enough fps for reliable expansion. The 240gr XTP MAG is far tougher than the regular 250gr XTP. There is a huge difference in jacket thickness.

If you cant resist the overwhelming urge to use 2 pellets then get some regular 250gr XTPs and the Harvester Smooth Black Sabots for upto 300gr bullets.

Ok thank you sir. So if i use loose powder, can i still use the same breech plug? Also, once im done hunting does that mean u cant re-use the powder since its loose like u can with pellets? How do u go about gettin the loose powder out?

Ok yes i did buy sum xtp mags a few months back. What does a diff sabot change about the shot?

In CVAs you are far better off getting the Blackhorn209 breach plug from either CVA or Western.

Carlos at Eds Gunshop in Vass NC can sell you a Western Powders BH209 plug with everything you need.

The regular plug works fine with pellets and other brands of loose powder.

The Harvester smooth black for upto 300gr bullets is normally the best fit for the newer CVAs. The sabot the comes with Hornady or T/C ML bullets is made by MMP and it will load much tighter than the Harvester sabot.

10/4 thank you

Gotchya thank u sir

What caliber XTPs did you buy? Are they .44 (.429") or .45 (.451")? I believe I have Harvester smooth and crush rib in each and I could send you a couple to try for fit. IMO the XTP is all the bullet you need for deer. I've used them with good success in the 300 grain version both .44 and .45. I also use the 295 gr Barnes T-EZ bullet
As for the powder choice its up to you whether you want to use Blackhorn 209. If you do I would recommend the BH209 breech plug as previously stated. But there is nothing wrong with using Pyrodex RS, Just a bit dirtier. Lately I've been experimenting with Alliant Black MZ powder and getting good results out of my Accura V2. And the one thing I've found is that you really have to compress it for good accuracy.

Ill have to check when I get home but im pretty sure there 44 cal .429.

The 240gr 44cals are NOT Mags. They are just a regular XTP. You will need the Harvester green smooth sabot for those.

I know only a little about CVA rifles. The old man always told me if he found out I bought a CVA product from those thieving SOB's then he would disown me. I do know the power belt problem you are having and know many people that have had the exact same experience. While they are probably one of the most accurate muzzleloading bullets on the market, their performance on animals lacks much to be desired in both mine and many others experience. The 250 XTP is about the only saboted bullet that one of my sidelocks will accurately shoot. And it does a very thorough job on deer. Never had one go more than 50 yards and the one that did make it 50 yards was more my fault than the bullet performance. It was heavily quartered away when I took the shot and I only got one lung and some arterial damage. Out of the 15 or so deer I have taken with the 250 grain XTP I have only recovered one bullet. The rest were clean pass through doing a very nice job on the way through. The one I did recover I found just under the hide of the off side shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder at right around 100 yards. Bullet was completely intact and mushroomed perfectly. I push that bullet with 105 grains of Swiss FFG from a Thompson Center .50 caliber Renegade 1:48 twist.

Just remember where you place the bullet is very important when it comes to retrieving deer like I said before just over the top of the heart will get both lungs and the cluster of arteries that will give the best blood trail.
The PB is the most expensive mistake that is common.

Thank you i will have to start aiming a lil lower

So if you do use the blackhorn lose powder how do you go about using it? How do u measure it and install it in the gun. Like once u pour it down the barrell do u have to compact it down somehow?

Get a powder measure. Measure out the desired amount. In my CVA Optima it likes 90 grains of BlackHorn 209. Dump that down the barrel. Then put your sabot/bullet combination into the muzzle. With a short starter seat it in the barrel. Then with the ramrod slide that sabot down onto the powder charge FIRMLY. That will take care of the powder.

Now I am going to get some people upset. I have been shooting Black Horn 209 for years now in my Optima and Remington Genesis. When I run out of that powder, its so long for ever. I know people like Black Horn. You don't have to swab. It has great power. But I never had a powder give me so many headaches in my Optima. And of course the Black Horn lovers had immediate fixes. Your primer was not strong enough. Or you need O rings to stop that back blow. I just jumped through too many hoops to shoot that powder. And discovered, its no better then loose triple Seven 2f. Other then with Triple Seven I have to swab the bore between shots. To that I say big deal, I can swab a bore. But to those that love and shoot Black Horn 209 the best of luck with you and your powder. But like I said, when I run out of this last pound, its "vaya con dios Black Horn 209"

The first time i ever shot a muzzle loader was several years ago now, but i remember that first experience like it was recent. The rifle was a brand new Omega. There was a few bullets included in the box with the rifle. Shopped all over town for powder; the only thing i could find was a package of 777 pellets. The only primers i could find were the W209 primers. The package said the pellets were 30 grain each. So i loaded three of them, and pushed a bullet down the barrel till it hit the powder. Put the primer in the socket there, and aimed; pulled the trigger, and BOOM. That was fun!! Plenty of recoil, but fun. Did it again, and another BOOM, and more fun!!

Then, loading the third bullet was quite difficult, but got it done. One more time, BOOM, wow more fun!!. When i went to load the rifle again one of the pellets split in two. It was then i discovered i was loading double pellets. Whoops! Whoops, i had loaded 180 grain of powder those first shots. Well, i never made that mistake again, but now i couldn't get the bullet down to the powder. To get the bullet down to the powder i had to swing the rifle/ramrod into a tree. Bang goes the rifle/ramrod against the tree, and again Bang. A few hits against the tree, and things were ready for another shot. A lot less recoil there was.

Next time out i swabbed between shots. Then i found one should use a special primer. Then i found it may be better to use small rifle primers in a special adapter. Then i found some loose 777. After jumping through all these hoops i was able to settle in and burn 777 powder just fine.



When Blackhorn became available, i got me a bottle. Doing nothing special, i loaded, and shot, and loaded, and shot, and loaded, and shot....... No longer did i need a special primer, W209 worked good. Nor was it necessary to swab between shots. Used the same bullets/sabot. Used the same loading technique, nothing special. All was well; no longer did i put up with the headaches of burning 777. life is good............:D












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cayugad, I can tell you with no uncertainty what the old man would have said to you about that. It aint the powder it's the CVA. Me on the other hand, I have absolutely zero experience with that blackhorn. That was all dad and alex. I haven't even picked his Thompson Center Pro Hunter up, yet. But Alex wont shoot anything other than that Blackhorn in her Thompson Center Impact. And I have to say, that little rifle is scary accurate in her hands. Just the other day she was banging the gong at 300 yards with me on that smokeless muzzleloader I finished of dads. That's a mighty long poke for a smoke pole. Of all of the kids, she is without a doubt the best marksperson with a rifle among us out to 600 yards. After that she can't handle the recoil from a rifle capable of the extended ranges for taking big game. Poor little midget. Hope she doesn't read this. She may be a midget but she makes up for her lack of size in pure meanness and determination.
FlaBoy18, Alex loads hers pretty much the same as I load my smokepoles. Measure, pour, start, ram, and rock onto the ramrod with about 65 or so pounds of force to seat the bullet/sabot. She says to make sure you try to be as consistent on that as you can with your seating pressure. Swiss is like that for me too. One of my smokepoles is really picky about seating pressure. Over the years, I have found muzzleloaders to be the most picky rifles about the seemingly smallest of things but it's what makes them the most fun. For me anyway.

I got same problem got info here exact same prob I going to change to 777 and bullet and see

To be more specific and I am sure some of you can remember the headaches I had... I got the Optima because I wanted to try blackhorn 209 in something other then my Knight Disc. Well the first range time I had so many misfires. I was using the original came with it breech plug, Winchester W209 primers, and of course the Black Horn.

Reported the terrible range experience and immediately I was told ... wrong breech plug. You need a special breech plug. So OK ... invested in the new breech plug. All happy to hit the range. Again, nothing but Misfires. Reported my results.

OK I was told ... the Winchester W209 primers were not hot enough. That was my problem. New primers I thought? Wow it needs a special plug and new primers? OK ... went and got some Remington STS and some CCI (as suggested).

New range day... gun went off fine ... for about six shots. Then more misfires? Reported my findings. Again the experts said, well you have to scrape the breech plug out with a drill bit every five or six shots. OK ... new plug, new primers, now a drill bit to scrap every lets say 10 shots.

New range day ... gun fired fine as long as I scraped the breech plug. But posted pictures of the blow back in the breech plug. I thought this was a clean powder? Again the experts told me how to fix it. You need O rings because the primers are too short or some such foolishness. So OK ... lets see, new plug, new primers, drill bit for scraping the breech plug, and now O rings. Got all that. Rifle shoots great with Black Horn 209.

One day for the heck of it I loaded Triple Seven powder in the Optima. It shot great. But I had to (like always) swab between shots. Rifle shot great groups, and the powder was cheaper and easier to find (actually in the stores here) where I lived. No ordering on line. So I swabbed the bore, while the barrel cooled (it was summer) and while I checked the target the barrel dried. Came back loaded and repeat. Had a blast.

Velocity information indicated that the difference in velocity between loose Triple Seven 2f and BlackHorn 209 was next to nothing. So why was I getting excited about a powder that needed a special breech plug, hotter primers, a drill bit to scrape the breech plug, and O rings to stop the blow back? Oh ya! Because I was told its the greatest powder of all times. As I said before, when it runs out ... vaya con dois.

But not to dampen the parade. If BlackHorn works for you, and swabbing is that important to you... then enjoy this great powder. My favorite powder is real black powder which cleans with water. Did I mention I can clean Triple Seven out of my rifle barrel with dish water. Black Horn you use cleaning products like you would for a modern centerfire as I was told it does not like water based cleaners. Again this is only my opinion and it pertains to me only. I am sure your experiences are much better.

Cayugad.........All the info to shoot BH 209 was available to you before you bought the gun. Had you set it up for BH 209 to begin with you wouldn't have had any problems. If you would have bought the Western BH 209 breech plug it comes with the proper drill in a drill holder and the o-rings. Then just use the Federal 209 primers and you would have been all set.

T7 powder is ok, but can't compete with BH 209. It gives you crud rings, freezes up breech plugs, needs to be swabbed between shots, and isn't as accurate. It also doesn't get the same fps when heavier conicals are used.

With that said I like real black better than any other powder. Swiss especially. However, I like the old stuff in all that I do. Even fly fishing, but for a modern muzzleloader hunter, BH 209 is hard to beat.

Personally, After shooting all the BH209 that I have, its a head space problem where you lose to much of the primers gasses and the rifle misfires. I can take a factory cva plug, shim it or o ring the primer pocket and have zero trouble. Leave it in factory set up and you might experience a hang fire or complete misfire at times.

Just like with #11 caps and black powder subs. Vented nipples with those powders suck.

Muley Hunter, you must be the Pete my dad was always laughing about saying you were one on here just as ornery as him. He always liked giving you the business for laughs. Like you, I like the old stuff myself. Mind you I am really enjoying that smokeless demon spawn muzzleloader the old man ordered up and I built as that thing is flat out a marvel to shoot. But my old sidelocks, both sparkers and cappers, just seem to always get my blood up. Just something about knowing all the work and experimentation you had to put in with an old sidelock when you pull the trigger on a nice deer that just brings it all home. All the new fancy inlines are great and all. They just don't make my blood run hot.

Calling me ornery is being nice is describing me. I'm sure i'm the one your dad was talking about.:party0005:

Actually Muley when I bought the Optima there was very little information about the quirks of BlackHorn 209. I technically was shooting Black Horn at the request of Western Powder before it was even on the market. And I did like the powder at first. But I fully expected the rifle to shoot it. One reason I was so surprised and then the forum played this guessing game about what the problem could be. The hotter primer was a real shock as many Black Horn shooters use the Winchester Primers which is what is in the stores around me.

As for Triple Seven being less accurate, I would have to disagree with that statement. Triple Seven is a very accurate powder. I find with Black Horn the first couple of shots, until the rifle is fowled, are not in my main group. This does not happen with T-7.

And we all know of the crud ring. As I said, I swab and its not upsetting at all. But since I actually take care of the breech plug properly with grease and tape, and clean my rifles immediately, even with Black Horn, after shooting ... I have never had a stuck plug. Never! In fact they come out just fine.

As for conicals velocity ... I think they FPS are so close and in some cases from Sabotloader's data, even faster velocities can be reached with T-7. And I never seem to get good accuracy with heavy conicals and Black Horn. I get much better accuracy with T-7 and conicals in my white rifles.

Don't you think its strange that you purchase a powder and then you need to get special plugs, drill bits, and O rings just to shoot it? Also take the two powders and then look at your gun rack and tell me how many can shoot Black Horn safely according to manufacturer's recommendations and then do the same with Triple Seven? Of all my rifles other then the flintlocks of course, I can shoot T-7. I can not say that about BlackHorn.

But as I said, if you like Black Horn then by all means shoot it. That's Great! But as I stated, these were my opinions and I would rather choose T-7 over Black Horn. And if I loose 50 fps on a projectile (which since it does not matter to me and I even doubt it) I can more then accept that too.

Do u get the same fps out of 100 grain of pellet 777 compared to 100 grain of lose 777 powder?

No you don't. Because they make the T-7 pellets smaller so that they match the power of Pyrodex Pellets, 100 grains of loose, and 100 grains of black powder. If you were to load 100 grains of loose Triple Seven you would have a load approximately 10-15% stronger then 100 grains of T-7 pellets.

There's a reason for the CVA not coming BH 209 ready. The majority shoot pellets. That's what the stock breech plug is set up for. CVA is catering to the majority. At least they offer a breech plug that works with BH 209 now. That wasn't always the case. I can shoot BH 209 out of a bone stock CVA, but everything needs to be perfect. The BH 209 BP makes it easier. We were shooting BH long before anybody made a special BP for it.

When I say T7 freezes BP's. I'm talking compared to BH 209. I run the BP bone dry when using BH 209 and it never sticks. I find that much easier than messing with grease and tape.

As for accuracy? I'm going by those who do a lot of bench shooting. (not me) It seems universal that BH 209 is the winner. I've also read multiple times that T7 and BH are pretty close in fps until you get to heavier conicals and then BH pulls away.

As I said though. I just shoot sidelocks now and Swiss. That doesn't mean I can't still offer help for those who are new to inlines. You made it sound like using BH 209 is a big deal. It really isn't. BH is basically a detuned smokeless powder. It needs some special attention to fire reliably. Some guns fire it bone stock. CVA isn't one of them unless you want to get picky about all the details to make it fire bone stock.

The 245 Powerbelts are a tad light for big game hunting... The 270 Platinums and 250 Aerolites are awesome on whitetails and hogs up to around 200 pounds. :guiness:

I'm definitely with Cayugad on the use (or non-use) of Bh209. I have the correct BP too. I just don't feel the benefits justify the price. My flinters use Goex BP, and my caplocks use the same or Pyrodex P or RS depending on the caliber. My inline has been getting fed Alliant Black MZ and I'm really satisfied with it. IMO it shoots almost as clean as BH at about 1/3 the price. Using that and a 295 gr Barnes T-EZ last year I took 3 whitetails and a nice hog. All but one deer was DRT.

Muzzleloaders should shoot black powder. No matter what the ignition system is. I'm using Swiss in the Accura MR. I like the smell, smoke, and accuracy of BP. It even has it's own unique boom to it. It also has the lowest ignition temperature of any powder. It always goes off.

What's not to like? Dirty? Bah, muzzleloaders are dirty. Shoot a CF rifle if you want clean.

Be a muzzleloader hunter. Make big booms. Make big smoke. Make big smiles. :D

To each their own Pete. I enjoy black powder myself but some guys don't. Or they don't like to swab between shots. Personally, I don't mind it.

CF guns need no swabbing. ;)

Actually, i'm whining because stores don't carry real BP anymore like they used to. Everybody buys the fake crap, so why should they? So, we're left with buying it online and paying the Hazmat fee and shipping. It sucks!

Old coots don't like things that suck in their life.


Ok, i'm done. Carry on.

You can't get your local store to get it in for you Muley Hunter? Mine always orders up a couple of pounds of Swiss from his distributor/supplier for me and a couple of other guys that like making smoke. Most distributors carry Swiss with other brands from what they tell me so it isn't like it costs them anything extra to have a couple of cans in the order thrown in. I haven't burnt any Goex in several years but I have been looking close at that newer Old Eynsford and the way Mr. Bronkowski has been advertising that Black MZ stuff I may take a look at that as well. I like Swiss because of it's consistency which so far is unmatched by anything else on the market today from my experience in real black powder.

The ones i've asked weren't interested. They said they have to be setup for it by having a big safe to store it. That could be a Colorado thing. I'm not sure.

OE is really close to Swiss in quality and performance. Its gaining popularity very rapidly in competition shooting. Its $4 cheaper than Swiss and $7 cheaper than BlackMZ around here.

Yes, it is, but i'm a bit suspicious of it. I'm curious how they found that extra power for so little money and since it's made by Hodgdon they could have snuck in another ingredient. To be black powder it needs to have sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate. That doesn't mean they can't add something else.