Muzzleloader against Centerfire Rifle!!!
 

I've been off work for awhile now and have been watching a lot of hunting and shooting. And a lot of it reminds me when I was younger and using CF rifles. I mainly used a 30-30, 270 and 30-06. I was not into testing guns and bullets by any means. My primary bullet choices back then were Remington and towards the end Hornady light magnums.

And just like now on tv, I very rarely had a Deer drop in it's tracks. I've watched 35 Whelens, 300 weatherby magnums, and many more shoot Deer, Bear, Elk and Moose. And none of them kill like my Knight Disc Elite and a 200grn Bloodline. I mean honestly not even close. And while I'm writing this, the CVA scout I just bought comes to mind. I bought a 45-70 and had it converted to a ML. I'll mainly shoot a light load of N120 and it will increase the velocity on this bullet as well. Which will create even more energy.

But is energy really that important? I understand you need it but how important is it? I would bet a 270 would have almost 2800 foot pounds at the muzzle. My ML is no way near that. But I know for a fact I'll clean its clock on game at 200 yards and under. I don't doubt the CVA will extend that range but I don't have any experience to back it up yet. I really believe the bullet is every bit as important as energy if not more important.

I've shot many many many different bullets out of a ML. One bullet you can't push to fast, one bullet you need to push fast. But none of them are even close to what I use. I actually shot two Deer with a Lyman DeerStalker Flintlock with a 200grn Bloodline with 100grns by volume of black powder. Talk about enemic load that's it. But got the same results if I was shooting it with 130grns of BH209 out of an inline ML.

I'm real excited about the new copper bullets that Lehigh came out with to compete with the Brass Bloodline bullets. http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/muzzleloader/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856
And I'm looking forward to testing the soon to be out .40cal bullets to see how they compare with the current Bloodline bullets. The 265grn Copper bullets have done very well for me and others that tested them. But the .40cal bullets will be the key with me. Just harvested a lot more game with those.

So in the mean time I'm honestly convinced, not only am I using the best ML bullet in the world!!! I'm just using the best bullet in general you can buy. And I would really like to see this concept in CF bullets for hunting.

And that is exactly why I made the move to Nosler Partitions so long ago... to help stop all that Tom-Foolery...

I've never used Nosler in any gun before. I don't know what particular Nosler Jim Shockey uses in his CF rifles but boy they are bad. Of course he claims he uses them but I guess he might not?? I'm sure many people watch the Outdoor channel and everything he shoots runs and runs. Is the partition you like a premium bullet?

Eh, I've had them drop in their tracks from just about everything in the centerfire world of bullets. And I've had them run forever. Same with ML bullets as well. Bullet placement is the key to whatever you are shooting. Bullet performance is second. I've nailed the boiler room, completely destroying the heart and lungs and watched them run for a couple hundred yards. Same shot, same rifle, same load, dropped in their tracks. The last several years now, I've been using High Shoulder shot placement. They don't even move any other way than straight down. For that shot, you need very good external ballistics for excellent accuracy. I've nailed a few deer now with the Lehighs as well as a few for my daughter now. They have performed flawlessly. None of mine have taken a step. Only one of hers took a step and it wasn't but a few dirty nose shuffle steps from a 211 yard shot. It's not a bullet I would want to compete at a long range contest with, but it is plenty accurate enough for a 200-250 yard shot. External ballistics wise, it aint a Parker. But a Parker aint a Leghi or a Bloodline when it comes to Terminal Ballistics either.

Yes it is a premium and I believe Shockey use the high BC accu-bond or the Ballistic Tip. Big difference between them and the Partitions.

Shockey uses the Nosler Ballistic Tip MZ bullet or so he says. Its nothing more than a SST type bullet in .458 It did fairly well in Ron's jug testing. Very similar to what ive seen in the 300gr SST weight retention/expansion.

Nosler offers the exact same bullet in bulk 50 packs for 458 SOCOM
Im much more interested in copper 40cal bullets over 200gr that will shoot in sabots. It can be slightly tricky with the current 45x40 sabot selection but it is doable.

The Leigh copper bullet I must admit interests me also. I always was a fan of the Barnes Copper bullets. The testing I did with them and a Black Diamond XR was to say the least spectacular in the devastation department and the hold together and deform perfect department. One reason I hunted for years with my Knight LK rifle and a Barnes MZ Expander. I just wish the deer had cooperated.

Are these new copper bullets heavy weight or light weight? I will be watching for your updates on it.

As for your topic of center fire VS muzzleloader, I have had deer drop in their tracks from Center Fires. Both the 30-06 and the 7mm Remington Magnum has planted a lot of deer. But it was all shot placement. I used to do a lot of neck shooting when young. But as the distances got longer, I changed to center mass shooting. Although I have still dropped them there too.

With a muzzleloader, I have never taken a deer yet with a sabot. Every time I hunt with one, I never see anything to shoot. But I have shot a large number of deer with round ball, and conical. And most of them were a bang flop.

Good grief Charlie Brown! I've had many more deer drop where they stood then ran off. As far back as I can remember using a CF I only ever had 2 deer run off. One was with a .243 but upon later examination the usually reliable 100 gr Hornady Interlock exploded on contact and never penetrated. The other was a Remington Core-Lokt 150 from a .308. Both deer were recovered however with the one using the .243 required a quick running follow up shot. All the deer (and antelope) shot with my .270 dropped like a sack of potatoes.
My ratio with the ML is about 50-50 dropping and running. This includes deer taken with PRB, Powerbelt, XTPs, REALs, and Barnes EZs. IMO its about 99% bullet placement.

Exactly! Perfect!

Thanks for the replys guys. But shame on me for not being more specific. I'm not talking about neck or shoulder shots. I'm talking strictly behind the shoulders and back. I think now this truly shows how good your particular bullet is. In the heat of the moment I always aim in the center of the Elk or Deer right behind the shoulders. I just feel it allows a lot of room for error and I get more meat this way as well. That's a lot more important to me with Elk ecspecialy.

My preferred and always attempted POI on game is a heart shot. I've flattened them on the spot with muzzleloaders, shotgun slugs, CF rifles and pistols. I've also had them with the heart blown completely in 1/2 run up to 100yds, with all the above mentioned firearms.
I do everything possible to avoid higher body shots through the lungs. I want two holes low in the body to promote, if needed, the best blood trail possible.
Place that shot correctly and you can kill them with a marble. I also believe it can depend on the alertness of the animal at the time. In general, an animal completely relaxed will drop much faster than an alert animal.
One of my earliest bucks shot with a recurve bow, was completely unaware of me or any other danger. He was feeding just outside the woods in a grass field. The arrow took him through the lungs and stuck out both is sides. He jumped straight up in the air and when he came back down, just looked around. Then he walked a short distance in circles and just laid down. Never knew he'd been shot.

Right now the Copper Lehigh bullet is Heavy. The only one I've seen right now is 265grn. I'm hoping for a lighter .452 around 240 or 245grn bullet. Mainly just for Elk. For Deer I'm hoping a .40 190 to 200grn bullet. I'm sure he will make a .40 higher BC bullet for the fast twist 45's in the 225 to 240grn weight range.

As far as Barnes in Muzzleloaders, Barnes knows themselves the MZ Expander is by far the most lethal bullet they got for a ML. The guys that use others truly do got to worry about shot placement or the ideal shot. In my hunting world, everything is far from perfect, that's why I use the best bullet I can use. But knowing what I know today, the MZ Expander would be my second choice bullet today.

Talk Lehigh into making a .310" bullet. This is for a 7.62x54 round. A big time popular rifle, but NO aftermarket bullets for reloading unless you use a terrible fitting .308"

Speaking of Bows I've been playing around with different broad heads. To date nothing I've tried kills like a 2 blade rage. I've not had a Deer go past 40 yards with one. I understand mechanical broadheads aren't so good for shoulder shots, but I don't shoot there.

I'm also playing around with 22 shells. Really trying to get a handle on sonic and sub sonic ammo. Just haven't came to a good conclusion yet. But sonic 22 ammo dropping to sub sonic doesn't make sense to me. Right now I'm leaning towards sub sonic but still playing around with them.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/311-high-velocity-controlled-chaos-copper-123gr-bullet?variant=17037720260

not sure if that 123gr bullet would do well in the 7.62x54 especially for larger game like elk. Right now, factory russian FMJ is 147 grain.

That's perfect for the AK47s however.

????? All kinds of .310 bullets out there. You use the same bullet in the x54 that you do for the x39, .310. I am assuming by popular you mean those with Mosins? x39 is vastly more popular than the x54's. Same bullet just different case length. Hornady and Barnes both make several versions of the .310 bullet. Sierra has a few.

Try slugging your barrel MD and see what you come up with. You may be surprised to find your barrel may be as much as .312! Lotta Mosins out there that just don't have consistent sizing of the barrels. Lehigh does make a .311 Controlled Fracturing 123 grain bullet. A .311 may just tighten your groups up as well.

.311 would be tight in both mosins. The 123gr bullet is a little on the light side for elk hunting.

So am I Grouse. I never shoot for the shoulder and rarely in the neck. I'm talking behind the shoulder taking out both lungs. The hydrostatic shock from the .243 (100 gr bullet) and the 270 (130 gr) causes dramatic tissue damage. I hit a buck coming straight on with the 270 once and drove him straight back on his butt and he never got up.
I guess you can say I've been extremely lucky. My friend, who swears by his 30-06 and shoulder shots, almost always has his deer run off, even if only for a short distance. I make fun of him too because we hunt a lot in the strip mines and his deer usually find their way to the bottom of one nearby.

Same here, when I first started bow hunting I shot a little deer with a schwacker and it worked good. Then I tried Montec CS, horrible blood trail and didn't like the opening, switched to Rage chisel tip 2 blade and only one Doe did I have to do a follow up shot on and it was my fault for shooting at 40 yards and I didn't stop her but it opened her up and she would have died from 1 lung and liver if she wouldn't have walked back to me. I switched last year to Magnus buzz cut 2 blade and I shot 2 deer with them but with horrible blood trails, so its back to 2 blade rage. I'm not sure how it will do on a shoulder shot as I haven't hit one there but I'm impressed with them. I'm shooting 70lbs at 27" draw with 27" Aluminum arrows.

The two deer I shot with my muzzleloader this year one dropped in sight but I spined and must have gotten lung as he dropped and tried to get up then expired within 30 seconds from the shot. The next one I shot was shoulder shot, slight quartering to me and she ran off about 50 yards and died. Bullet went in her left front shoulder and didn't exit, but made it under her hide behind her shoulder but the bullet was just a copper base with one petal. The exit was about a 1 inch long gash about the size of a pencil. Hornady SST 300 grain

All my cf kills have dropped them in their tracks .300 winmag shooting either SST 180 grain or 180?? Nosler partition. I did shoot one with a Barnes 200 grain bullet. All hand loads though.