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Duplexing For BH209
Okay boys and girls. It's time to put our thinking caps on for a minute. I just read about a little trick that I may just give a wack at but I'd like to get some opinions or experiences first. I've read a couple posts on another site that some are loading 3-4 grains FFFG down the barrel before a load of BH in their inlines with #11 caps (one was a White Super 91) and getting reliable ignition!! Bronko had a NIB White Super 91 that I passed on for 2 reasons. 1: plunger/bolt type receivers and my sausage fingers just don't get along well without a primer tool. 2: #11 percussion type rifles won't reliably fire BH209 and if I'm using an inline, I want to use the best performing powder on the market. Now I'm kinda kicking myself in the butt for passing on a great deal on a rifle that could have very well surpassed the full bore bullet performance of my TC Pro Hunter barrel (no easy task there) that would also be "western compliant"!! Any of you guys with Whites ever tried this little trick??
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Yes, I tried it years ago in a CVA Hawken sidelock and it worked fine, just super slow when it came time to reload.
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Ive never liked the idea of duplexing/mixing powders. Different pressure spikes can occur and accuracy will change. I agree BH209 powder is the best powder using 209 primers. But using number 11"S in a White i would shoot 777 myself.
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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 4286292)
Yes, I tried it years ago in a CVA Hawken sidelock and it worked fine, just super slow when it came time to reload.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 4286293)
Ive never liked the idea of duplexing/mixing powders. Different pressure spikes can occur and accuracy will change. I agree BH209 powder is the best powder using 209 primers. But using number 11"S in a White i would shoot 777 myself.
But yes, variation in power spikes could be a small issue but easily resolved with careful pre measurement of the FFFG so as not to get any deviance between shots. I have some duplex loads (smokeless/BP combo) for my BP cartridge rifles that are absolutely SUPERB but one has to be exacting doing that. The same exacting nature would probably be needed for this as well. (Disclaimer: Duplex smokeless/black powder loads are extremely dangerous and are NOT recommended for ANYONE not highly educated and experienced in loading and BP cartridge rifles. To put it simply, it can easily cost you your life.) |
Originally Posted by super_hunt54
(Post 4286304)
Super slow? A quick dump just like powdering your flash pan on a flinter as an extra step would only add a couple seconds really. And I didn't even think about trying this with a sidelock given the flash hole position, I would imagine getting the FFFG next to it to ignite first would be difficult at best.
How could it change if you haven't tried it in the first place?? :D (give ya a sec to wrap yer head around that one :D ) But yes, variation in power spikes could be a small issue but easily resolved with careful pre measurement of the FFFG so as not to get any deviance between shots. I have some duplex loads (smokeless/BP combo) for my BP cartridge rifles that are absolutely SUPERB but one has to be exacting doing that. The same exacting nature would probably be needed for this as well. (Disclaimer: Duplex smokeless/black powder loads are extremely dangerous and are NOT recommended for ANYONE not highly educated and experienced in loading and BP cartridge rifles. To put it simply, it can easily cost you your life.) |
One of my hunting buddies uses a primer of 10 grains of flowered blasting powder[5F]
as a primer charge. He puts saran wrap in his quick loader over the top of the powder and puts the black 5F on that then dumps that in first pulls off the saran wrap and puts in the main charge. I warned him that he will get the remains of a cap in his face some day but he has been doing it for 5 years and is comfortable with it. |
Don't know if I would do it but I don't see any harm in doing it either. If I don't have a reliable ignition (AKA 209) I wont use BH209.
But on a side note I've been having some good success with Black MZ powder. It's been shooting great on the range and firing 3 shots on game has resulted in two deer and one hog. (one deer and the hog were DRT and the other deer didn't travel very far). Loading is easy and cleaning between shots like 209 is not necessary. But unlike BH209 it ignites reliably with #11 caps. |
What's to gain?
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Duplexing has been going on longer than any of us have been alive. There is even data listed in a Lyman manual for BPCR using no more than 10% smokeless in older cartridges like 45/70, 45/90 ect.
The early duplexes used 4F under 1.5F or 2F and later powders like 4759 and 5744 started being used as the "igniter" charge. Google "BPCR duplexing". You will get many hours of reading on the topic. BTW Hodgdon has been dong the same thing since Pyro pellets came out. What do you think the black end of a Pyro pellet is made out of? Right in the Pyrodex MSDS it lists Pyro pellets as having a lower ignition requirement. https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20F...Sheet-2013.pdf Granular 740F Pellets 500F |
On a side note ive duplexed BH209 with smokeless as a test in my smokeless Pacnor 45. Adding a small amount of slower burning double based powder i gained over 100fps vs a straight 120grV BH209 load.
That barrel can easily handle a straight 70gr load of that powder so it was safe in my barrel. Im not suggesting it is safe in your typical muzzleloader. |
Originally Posted by bronko22000
(Post 4286359)
Don't know if I would do it but I don't see any harm in doing it either. If I don't have a reliable ignition (AKA 209) I wont use BH209.
But on a side note I've been having some good success with Black MZ powder. It's been shooting great on the range and firing 3 shots on game has resulted in two deer and one hog. (one deer and the hog were DRT and the other deer didn't travel very far). Loading is easy and cleaning between shots like 209 is not necessary. But unlike BH209 it ignites reliably with #11 caps. |
Originally Posted by lemoyne
(Post 4286404)
Where did you get the idea that BH 209 needs to be cleaned between shots? My accuracy experiments show that as a mistake.
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Originally Posted by bronko22000
(Post 4286359)
Don't know if I would do it but I don't see any harm in doing it either. If I don't have a reliable ignition (AKA 209) I wont use BH209.
But on a side note I've been having some good success with Black MZ powder. It's been shooting great on the range and firing 3 shots on game has resulted in two deer and one hog. (one deer and the hog were DRT and the other deer didn't travel very far). Loading is easy and cleaning between shots like 209 is not necessary. But unlike BH209 it ignites reliably with #11 caps.
Originally Posted by lemoyne
(Post 4286404)
Where did you get the idea that BH 209 needs to be cleaned between shots? My accuracy experiments show that as a mistake.
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Originally Posted by super_hunt54
(Post 4286288)
Okay boys and girls. It's time to put our thinking caps on for a minute. I just read about a little trick that I may just give a wack at but I'd like to get some opinions or experiences first. I've read a couple posts on another site that some are loading 3-4 grains FFFG down the barrel before a load of BH in their inlines with #11 caps (one was a White Super 91) and getting reliable ignition!! Bronko had a NIB White Super 91 that I passed on for 2 reasons. 1: plunger/bolt type receivers and my sausage fingers just don't get along well without a primer tool. 2: #11 percussion type rifles won't reliably fire BH209 and if I'm using an inline, I want to use the best performing powder on the market. Now I'm kinda kicking myself in the butt for passing on a great deal on a rifle that could have very well surpassed the full bore bullet performance of my TC Pro Hunter barrel (no easy task there) that would also be "western compliant"!! Any of you guys with Whites ever tried this little trick??
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I've used 5grns of 3f black with bh 209 in my whites .not a problem and its pretty accurate.
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Originally Posted by deepcreek
(Post 4286604)
I've used 5grns of 3f black with bh 209 in my whites .not a problem and its pretty accurate.
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Originally Posted by deepcreek
(Post 4286604)
I've used 5grns of 3f black with bh 209 in my whites .not a problem and its pretty accurate.
I just wouldn;t advise using Blackhorn in a plunger. But in a sidelock?...... five grains down the chute and add a little more under the nipple, should be fine. But good ignition would depend on the condition and design of the sidelock - quality of the nipple and cap.... and I would never exceed 95gr loose Blackhorn volume, in a 50-cal sidelock. |
BH209 in a plunger style gun reminded me of this post:
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/407995-black-diamond-t-c-blackhorn-209-a.html#post4267479 I realize this is about using #11 caps, but could the same thing happen? |
Yeah it could Bill. I'm just saying to heck with the idea and look for a Thunderbolt after I pee the wife off and order a Swinglock .45 speedy twist :D Or have a custom .50 1:20 twist built if I can't find a good .50 Thunderbolt.
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Doc White tested BH209 in a Thunderbolt.
Read the bottom paragraphs. All he did was adjust head space and added a vent liner to the breach plug. http://whitemuzzleloading.com/shooti...e-thunderbolt/ Doc thought pretty highly of BH209 in a Thunderbolt. http://whitemuzzleloading.com/interview-with-doc/ All of the above is nonsense if you are using a ThunderBolt with 209 ignition. Blackhorn 209 is hands down the best in the ThunderBolt. BT209 is a smokeless powder of course, they say with a few additives but they won’t say what the additives are. It acts a lot like the 8400 that I experimented with way back when. It is not at all like the 5744 that I took to Africa. Be that as it may, it works like a charm in the T-Bolt, producing great velocities with 300 -450 grain saboted bullets. I have not yet tried it with heavy slip fit bullets |
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