Thompson/Center XTP Bullets in Mag Express Sabot explained
 

I have used this bullet/sabot combination for my Whitetail deer hunting. I wanted to save some money and purchase a box of 100 240gr Hornady XTP bullets and then buy the sabots separate. The only 240gr Hornady XTP bullets I could find were XTP Mags. The Mags are apparently tougher than the regular XTP's made for higher rifle velocities. I assumed the Thompson/Center XTP package had mags in it too. Well after a lot of googling I could not find any definitive info on what is in the Thompson/Center package.

Recently, I purchased the 240gr XTP Mags. A box of 100. They did not look the same as the 240gr XTP's in the Thompson/Center XTP package. They were a little taller, the hollowpoint was a little smaller, and the nose was a little more rounded with only 4 cuts in it. The Thompson XTP's had 6 cuts in the nose.

So today I went out and tested the two bullets in water to see if they expanded the same. They did not.

The XTP Mag performed much better expanding to .765" and retaining 222gr of weight.

The Thompson/Center Packaged XTP expanded to .560 and retained only 160gr of weight. It looked like a muffin with its top removed.

My conclusion is that the Thompson/Center XTP in Mag Express Sabot is not a XTP Mag bullet but a regular XTP. I will be using the XTP Mag this year for my deer.

I wrote this up because I could not find any definitive info on this subject anywhere but saw a number of people wondering the same thing I was about what type of XTP bullet is in the Thompson/Center packaged XTP.

I was going to put a photo in but could not get it to upload so sorry. Dang computers.

Good info!! Thanks for sharing

I like shooting them. When I shoot the XTPs I like them in the .430 diameter (44 caliber). Then I use the green sabots with them. Real accurate.

IIRC at one time T/C shipped .430 bullets with black sabots. They are just MMP green 50x44 sabots in black instead of green.

Is it possible the 240gr XTPs that came with from T/C are actually the non mag .430 bullets. That would explain a lot. The T/C package does not say "XTP MAG" on it and according to my calls to Hornady they don't make any special XTPs for T/C. The only special bullet they make ONLY for T/C is the bonded Shockwave.

The XTP's in the Thompson pack measure .452

That is very odd.

Can you post a pic of the bullet and the T/C packaging?

I tried to upload a pic but the upload kept failing for some reason. Here's a link showing what I purchased. http://www.eabco.net/TC-Mag-Express-...0_p_13861.html

i used the 240 grain .430 bullets for many years. Used both the black and green sabots. Killed at least 20 deer and about 75 hogs with that bullet. IMO: It's a very good bullet.


i played with some of the 240 grain .452 bullets Magnum bullets but never got the accuracy the .430 bullets were capable of. May have killed a few hogs with the Magnum bullet.

The 240 XTP is a .429" bullet, while the 240 grain XTP-Mag is a .452" bullet. Hornady does not make an XTP-Mag in .429" caliber, nor do they make a standard 240 grain XTP in .452" caliber.

The regular XTPs were designed for the more subdued velocities you might get out of a 44 Magnum or 45 Colt revolver, which is to say 800-1400 fps. The XTP-Mags were designed for relatively high velocity cartridges such as the 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum, which can produce velocities of 1800-2400 fps.

Being quite familiar with both bullets, I took a look at the bullets loaded in the Hornady packages at my local store. In one of the Hornady XTP/sabot boxes, specifically the one labeled 50 cal, 240 grain with the green sabots, those bullets are the .429" regular XTP. In the box labeled 50 cal, 300 grain Mag-Express with the black sabots, the bullets were unmistakably .452" XTP-Mags, even though the bullets aren't specifically labeled as XTP-Mags.

There is also a 250 grain .452 XTP Bullet. Here is a link to the Hornady XTP bullets:


http://www.hornady.com/store/XTP-XTP-MAG/?page=3


Here is the Hornady XTP bullet performance chart:


http://www.chuckhawks.com/underrated_hornady_XTP.htm

The T/C XTP/sabot box labeled 50cal 240gr with black sabots I have here are .452 and weight 240gr. I checked with my calipers and scale. No matter though I know that I like the way the XTP Mag performed so that's what I will used this year instead of the ones from the T/C box.

That's really strange. I'm at a loss to explain why that is.

Yes me too. That is why I created the post. After my test I can say for sure that the T/C package does not contain a 240gr XTP Mag. But I cannot find anyplace, even Hornady's site, where they sells a regular 240gr XTP in .452.

If I can ever get the photo of the bullets to upload I will post them in this thread. Currently I get an error when trying to upload it.

Could you measure the length of the bullets for me? I want to see if they're actually 250 grain XTPs. Alternatively, if you have a scale, you could weigh them to check if they actually are 240 grains.

I weighed them and they are definately 240 gr. The Mag is a little taller I will post the actual measurement tonight.

XTP Mag measures .681 in length and the Thompson packaged XTP is .640 in length. Both are .452.
I would post a photo but I have given up trying to do that here. Just says upload error and I am tired of wasting my time.

dhasemann, you have to upload a pic to a host site like photobucket or wherever. Once you do that, you copy the image address and then paste that into the photo popup when you click on the postcard looking thingy.

A .452" 250 grain XTP is .661" long, and a .429" 240 grain XTP is .704" long. I think we've definitively proved the bullet in the package isn't any of the bullet normally offered by Hornady. I just wonder why the'd do that, though? Doesn't make much sense to manufacture an entirely new bullet for their muzzleloader when they already offer several similar weight pistol bullets.

No you dont. You can upload to your own album here too. You can even add them as an attachment.

Neither one of these pics is from a pic hosting site. I uploaded them directly to HNI.

Some photos of the 240gr XTP Mag and the 240gr T/C packaged XTP.

XTP Mag on left and T/C XTP on right in all photos




These were shot into 1 gallon water jug at 50 yards 2 pellets of 777. Both found in 4th jug. As you can see all the copper peddles are gone from the T/C XPT bullet.

Thanks for the post. Your comment about the album helped me figure out how to get a pic posted. I was able to upload to an album then use the url.

That XTP-Mag expanded almost perfectly.

Yes. I was impressed. That is what will be in the optima during deer season.

I think you have it backwards. The bullet on the left is the classic XTP MAG design. You can tell by how the jacket curls into the hollow point. The cross sections i posted show it as well.

You are correct I mistakenly labeled them incorrectly. Mag is on the left. It was late. I fixed it now.

BTW, as you can see in the cross section pics the 240gr XTP MAG has a very thick jacket. While 2 pellets at 50 yards may work fine, you may not like its performance as the range increases. That bullet has the BC of a brick and loses velocity fast.

It was designed for 454 Casull type speeds and not 45colt. A 240gr in a 454 Casull has no problem hitting 1900fps. Your 2 pellet load is well under 1900fps according to the Triple7 load data.

This pic is of a 250gr XTP shot at over 2100fps into ballistics gel at 50 yards. Performance was nearly flawless. 209gr retained weight.

Yeah if you research this subject, there are as many that say the Mags don't expand as say they do expand at ML velocities. So I'll test them at 100 yards and see what they do. That way I know for sure what they do. At 50yds expansion and weight retention looked pretty good.

The 240gr XTP Mag using 2 pellets 777. The mushroomed bullet in the center was from 50 yards and the far right bullet was shot from 100 yards. Both in to jugs of water. The 50 yard bullet was found in the 4th jug and the 100 year bullet was in the 5th jug. Not sure how it got thru more jugs from a longer distance but that is what happened. In my opinion this XTP Mag performs great out of my muzzleloader. Cannot wait to use them on deer this year. 2 weeks away.

It is not uncommon for slower, unexpanded bullets to penetrate deeper. This happens because it takes energy to change the bullet. If the bullet doesn't expand as much, the saved energy, carries the bullet further.

The energy for the expansion comes from the powder. The force for the expansion, from the tissue of the animal. Less expansion requires less force, thus less tissue damage.

Your testing indicates the non magnum bullet would be better for hunting deer at 100 yard. The magnum bullet will work, but won't be as destructive, as the non magnum out there.











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I was able to test the 240g XTP Mag on a whitetail this muzzleloader season and it performed perfectly. The shot was 110 yards and it left much bigger holes in and out than the Hornady SST 250g my buddy used on his deer.

Less than a 100gr volume. Or did you use more?
I'm guessing less than 100, for that mag bullet is a stubborn expander, when used with magnum powder charges.

I used 90g volume Blackhorn 209 powder.

Another item of note about the sabots. I trie both the crush rib black and the smooth black Mag Express sabots. My gun with the .452 XTP Mag bullet would only group well with the black crush rib sabots. The Mag Express smooth black sabots were all over the place at 100 yards. The Mag Express sabots and bullet were a tight fit in the barrel where as the crush rib were snug but slid down the barrel easy even after shooting. Just thought I would relay that bit of info. I did not expect that much difference in groupings from different sabots.

dhas

Welcome to the World Of Blackhorn 209. It can be-both finicky and unpredictable - sometimes both, on the same shot fired.

I find that statement to be 100% incorrect. As far as my testing goes, it's by far the most consistent BP sub on the market today. As long as you are using the proper equipment (primers and correct breech plug) for it. Seating pressure is about the only thing it's really picky at all about and to be honest, you should have proper seating pressure with ANY black powder or sub. His inconsistency had absolutely nothing to do with BH. Some sabot/bullet combos just don't work out of some rifles. Plain and simple.

For a finicky powder it sure has won a ton of times at the Inline Match at Friendship. Some of the scores have been new records too IIRC. Many of those wins have been with easy loading sabotless bullets.

Im glad i have zero issues using it in 3 different brand of rifles and plugs. Its been flawless except with the FPJ Knight plug that had a badly fouled flash channel.

The problem seemed to be the sabots and not the powder. I had the same issues using 777 pellets. As for the BH209, so far I love the stuff. Performs as good as the pellets or better for me and is a heck of a lot cleaner. Added bonus is I get to see the deer after the shot (little smoke}. I have the BH209 breach plug for my CVA Its the only thing that is hard to clean up after shooting.

Soaking the plug in all purpose windex cleaner may help your cleaning issues. This windex has vinegar in it, and seems to work good for softening the soot from Blackhorn.












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Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try. Hoppe's #9 is not real effective unless I lightly use a brass brush. Q-tips and #9 is a slow process.

Hoppe's Elite is a little better than the #9 at soaking the plug with. As Ron stated, Windex AP also does a pretty good job of softening. Get yourself one of them screwdriver handles that you can put the drill bit in for cleaning your flash channel. And the properly sized torch tip cleaner for the flash hole. Another cleaning tip I ran across a little bit back was dry wiping your bore a couple of passes before you hit it with a wet cleaning patch. You will find you will get a faster cleanup if you run a dry patch through a couple of passes to clear out the ash.