Got any supporting documentation?
 

MD54,

Its true that I'm old, but not old enough to have conversed with the Hawken brothers. Maybe we can ask Pete.

OldBob

A pure lead ball will expand on an animal 100% of the time. A 100% is a bold statement, and i'd never say it about any other bullet.

The problem is to make sure it doesn't over-expand, and not penetrate enough. This is done by too heavy of a powder charge.

I've shot round balls since 1980. Expanding is never a problem with them.

I'm not a fan of newspaper, water jugs etc. Show me what it does on an animal, and i'll take notice.

A couple of nice guys who built the best gun ever made. I had lunch with them all the time.

No....
 

Pete,

It translates well, though. Many CF hunters are using calibers with a military origin. We're many years past the butchering/sporterizing of former warhorses to get an inexpensive deer rifle, but the calibers live on. Isn't the 30-06 the #1 best seller? Used to be.

OldBob

You're fighting a losing battle with me. I have no interest in modern firearms.

We don't all enjoy the easy way of hunting.

How about catching up with the posting? You're as slow as a round ball.

Two different things.
 

Pete,

The problem is not the terminal ballistics, it is all the environmental factors that can cause your shot to go where you never intended. When that happens, ofttimes the hunter laments, "I pulled the shot!" Maybe not. I'm not saying this to give anyone an alibi. What I care about is that this misplaced shot can cause unnecessary suffering and lost game. This is due to predictable factors, and is correctable.

OldBob

Isn't that true for any round/gun? Just because you have a modern gun is no excuse to make a bad shot.

I already commented on this 50 pages back. I see more risky shots taken with big magnums than a hunter using a PRB. If anything a PRB shooter should be extra careful, because there's less room for error. It doesn't mean they don't work, but if they don't have the discipline to just take good shots. They shouldn't be using a PRB.

That's the bottom line, and you can't seem to see it. You seem to think if someone should fail with a PRB that nobody should use them. Couldn't you say that about any gun, and any bullet? One failure means failure for everybody?

Rotational velocity
 

Pete,

I think the spin is what's hurting roundballs out of quicker-twist rifles, Take your PRB out of a 1-60 at 1800 FPS. Now, if you want to shoot this out of your 1-48 twist rifle, you need to reduce the velocity to about 1440, to get the same RPM. Makes for an economical load, too, as it only takes half the powder. Probably only gives you half the energy, though.

OldBob

It's only imaginary if not in evidence. You have been on that soap box preaching the unethical practices of those choosing to use a PRB when you have absolutely zero experience with it. I feel it is supremely high headed of you to come onto a forum that contains many people with actual real life experience with a PRB and it's actual performance on LIVE GAME, not a stack of newspapers, and try to preach the unethical practice of a time honored tradition using traditional equipment.

Is it a perfect ammo to use? Absolutely not. Show me a platform that is! You can't because no such platform exists. You put a slow twist rifle designed for PRB loaded up in the hands of someone that knows it's limitations as well as their own and hunt well within those limitations and I will show you a person that is an ethical hunter. Many of us on here hunt well within 100 yards of our quarry. Me closer than most since I primarily archery hunt with both traditional stick and string as well as high speed compounds. I can lay claim to hundreds of whitetail, elk, moose, caribou, black bear, brown bear, and literally thousands of hogs. I've tested hundreds of different ammo varieties and firearm platforms. I've been called on by many "experts" in the field as well as manufacturers for testing of various instruments for hunting. What can you show in evidence to your book reading theory of the unethical practices of hunting with a PRB? Shooting it into some dry newspaper? When you have people on here that have killed hundreds of animals with them cleanly and effectively and you come on here with no experience whatsoever talking out of your rear end about the unethical practice of using this ammo/rifle combination then noone needs to "knock you off your soapbox". You are effectively knocking yourself off of it with no need of help from us.

That isn't any problem. It's just developing a load your gun likes. No two muzzleloaders shoot exactly the same. Too many variables.

My gun has no limit on powder load. It's made for the PRB, and will shoot the fastest powder charge that's still accurate in it.

Just for the record if we're talking about all powder loads, and size of round ball.

A round ball has killed every animal on earth including the big five in Africa.

Velocity loss
 

Pete,

Hence my cow head experiments. The problem with the PRB is its limited range due to the poor ballistics. The same thing that causes the wind drift means the ball slows down quickly. If you have selected a velocity that does not overexpand on your 10 yard shot, then at some point, I'm guessing less than 100 yards, the ball won't expand at all. This is the value of an artificial test medium. It isn't that the medium is an exact duplicate of a game animal, but it doesn't move. It is also more homogenous. I think we can gain valuable information from this kind of testing.

OldBob

No you can't. Wet newspaper is a torture test, and is not the same as what happens on an animal. The PRB expands just right at all the distances that I hunt. My limit is the open sights. Not the PRB. I've said all this already. Can't you read all the posts, and give one response? I've got stuff to do.

I'm gone.

Oh, deer!
 

Pete,

I'm sorta just killing time, until I can give my one dog his insulin shot. Which is right about now. They say 12 hours between, + or - 2 hours, but I try to run it as close to 12 as I can. He's doing well. He'll have as many days as God gives him. Me, too.

OldBob

Which ones do you remember?
 

Pete,

I remember my bad shots more clearly than my good ones. There haven't been all that many, but it really bites standing there wishing you could wind back the clock and pass on the shot. I could take you to the spot where I shot a woodchuck 30+ years ago. I was using a 270, and I could really shoot offhand then. Like, hit a Coke can every time at 100 yards. So I see the woodchuck, and took the shot. He drops down, and I start walking toward him. When I get close, I hear this wheezing. It turned out I had missed centering the head, and had shot off his nose. I quickly dispatched him, but as I recall, I never took another offhand shot like that. I was the very definition of hubris. I thought I was so good that I could never blow a shot.

And before someone says, "Oh, it was just a woodchuck" They all feel pain, the woodchucks and the deer and everything else. My arrogant confidence in my shooting ability caused this animal's last moments to be agony. That too is a correctable situation.

OldBob

Yes sir Bob! Respect thy earth and all it's inhabitants.

I would never say it's just a woodchuck. All animals deserve a swift death from us. All my shots are offhand, and even at my peak I wouldn't have felt comfortable with that shot. I would have set my max distance closer.

Let's imagine it's not a woodchuck, but an elk. A huge kill zone compared to a woodchucks head. Now let's set the max distance to under 50yds. Let's also imagine you'll never take any shot that isn't a broadside double lung shot. Also imagine you have the discipline to hold off taking a shot unless all these restrictions are met.

Do you think you'd ever miss?

Do you think a PRB will work?

Do you understand this is how I hunt?


If this doesn't convince you. I don't know what else to say, and I won't say any more. I've already said way too much about my hunting. I try to not talk about it. I hunt for me, and the memory of my dad who taught me everything.

Just a thought... If you could line all the guys out here in the west and for this we will say Colorado is in the west... OK so you have the Mt. men and explorers of 1840's - 1860 and you gave them the choice of rifles, powder, and projectiles of their time showed them the ML rifles, powders, and projectiles of today what do you think the majority of them would choose to use? Especially to a man that his life and trade depended on his rife of choice.

It is the nature of man to move to improvement. But then there folks that choose to remain in place and in time and you know that is their choice and right. We just need to hope those that choose stay in the 1860's do it as well as Pete does. But in real life it just doesn't happen with the majority.

I know I am going to regret this bit but for me this is how I feel

Baby!
 

Pete,

Yeah, I read about Sir Samuel Baker and "Baby", his 4 bore. And about the time it doubled on him.

OldBob

well in the mountain man days they were still using old school technology Flintlock while percussions had been around for the quite a while. Why? That new fangled technology ran outta caps at some point while that flintlock could work with some sort of rock they could find. They were very slow at adapting to the percussion lock.

Marble Bullseye
 

Pete,

This sight is a forward mounted peep. I don't think it would be as good as a back-in-your-face regular peep, but its got to be an improvement on any open sight. The thing that I like is that it looks like a full buckhorn sight. Worth a shot.:s4:

OldBob

round balls expand extremely well in game. One that I removed was a .570" ball and when recovered, was well over 80cal in diameter. Well over 2 1/2 feet of penetration as well. Shot straight through the chest and recovered resting against the ham bone.

AInt noone on here going to jump on you Mike. No reason to. You stated your opinion in such a way as to not be "preachy" nor condemn those that choose to use PRB equipment. You are actually 100% correct in your observation in my own little ignorant opinion. Bob, on the other hand, condemns all who choose to use this method. Like you, I prefer more modern bullets and platforms but am well versed in PRB usage (granted it's been many years) and have USED them on live game many times in the past. I just feel it is just ridiculous for someone with no experience with something to come along and condemn it just because they read a book or someone "told" them something.

You think?
 

MD54,

Check on the rarity of flintlock Hawken rifles. Although, we didn't have an army of trappers with Hawken rifles. Apparently the Leman rifle was a bit more common. I think the Lyman Trade Rifle is much more representative of what many people were using. Its a simple piece. Pictures I've seen seem to show a single wedge, single trigger design, with enough space in the guard for a gloved finger. Having to take your glove off to shoot could get downright painful, during a Rocky Mountain Winter.

Somewhere I read of the inventory of percussion caps at St. Lou. Bazzillions! I agree with your logic, and had I been alive then, I think I would have done exactly what you suggest. But ours would have been a minority opinion.

OldBob

I'm old!
 

Pete,

You're asking a lot of an old man's memory! Plus, I'm such a slow typist that by the time I get done with a long post, the thing asks me to log in. I've lost lengthy posts this way.

OldBob

the deal with every mountain man having a hawken is phoney. They were at the top after the era of the mountain men. Leman and many many many other rifles were used back in those days including british guns as well as french guns. A hawken cost double sometimes x3 as much as your typical rifle of the day.

I live in the rockies and hunt the cold weather with a hawken. Hunting with gloves or mittens is very typical and pretty obvious what a hunter does in order to safely pull the trigger. Not sure what warm season you hunt where gloves are not needed.

Fmj
 

SH54,

I would no more use a PBR than I would an FMJ on game. Now I know how an FMJ works, with its center of mass behind its center of form. Any deflection turns it into a buzzsaw, so the theory goes. And I know that every nation on Earth worked to perfect this action, once the Geneva Convention made expanding bullets illegal. And I know that this style of bullet killed a great many soldiers, perhaps millions. So it would be ridiculous to question the lethality of that bullet type. However, I think most if not all of the game commissions in the US have outlawed them for hunting. I don't know if their reasons are the same as my reasons, and my objections to them are different from my objections to the PRB. But I have never used them for hunting, and I never will.

To be polite, I have to tell tou that I am NOT trying to set you up. Say, if you reply, "I think FMJs should be outlawed for hunting." Then I say, "Why? you've never used them, but you don't question their lethality. Why should they be banned?" This line of reasoning could be extended to many things that are currently banned from our hunting fields.

As I've said before, you want to use a flint? Bravo! Its the longest-serving fire control system in the history of arms. You want to use a Matchlock? Its not for me, but I applaud you. The thing is, your choice of fire control system has scant effect on how humanely you can harvest game. The load you choose to send on its way has EVERYTHING to do with that. There's better things you can load that will probably be more effective than the PRB.

You cite my lack of experience with the PRB as a reason to dismiss my viewpoint about same, but if you know that I consider their use to be wrong, why would you ever expect me to use them? Do you think I would ever do or recommend to someone else that they use such a thing to harvest game? I can't imagine why you would think that.

OldBob

Indian Trade Rifle
 

MD54,

Yeah, to me its very obvious. You buy a rifle with enough space in the trigger guard so that you do not have to remove your gloves to shoot. This was something I checked out when I bought my last crossbow. That's why I don't understand the double set triggers on the "Hawken" replicas. You can't get your gloved finger in the trigger guard, and if you remove your glove, in short order you won't be able to feel the set trigger. Makes no sense.

Ever see a set trigger on a crossbow? Even the most expensive ones? There's a reason for that . . .

OldBob

well you just don't know how to adapt my friend.

And therein lies you problem Bob. You believe all this complete horse pucky you read about the lack of effectiveness they have on game and then, not only do you believe it, you try to preach to others who have actually used the damn things trying to tell them they don't work!! Do you not see the missed mark there Bob? Do I need to slow it down for you to understand that you are typing to a group of highly experienced people here that have experience with the things that you are trying to preach against. We have told you we know better than what you are preaching because WE HAVE USED THEM SUCCESSFULLY!!! We haven't read about them online or in a history book or some other science book that was probably written by someone just like you with absolutely no practical application experience with his/her subject matter. No one has said there aren't better options to be used. I personally use those better options. But you wont see me standing on a soap box trying to tell others that what they are using is ineffective and calling them unethical for using equipment that they KNOW how to use and use it WITHIN it's limitations.

Ergonomics
 

MD54,

Yes I know how to adapt. I don't adapt to them; I adapt them to me. This is called "ergonomics." I can't think of any polite word for the reverse situation.

OldBob

i'll educate you tomorrow when I have faster internet to upload pictures and show you how real hunters adapt to the cold and shoot double set triggers.

Don't you guys ever sleep? Wow.... went to bed watching the end of the Denver game and you guys are ripping up the bandwidth long into the night. I have to hand it to ya...dedicated. Nice job by the way debating the issue. :biggrin:

The problem is that we don't really know what caliber Lewis & Clark carried, so how do we know how to evaluate the effectiveness???

I have a copy of the first year of the Long Hunter Society, which is the record book of the NMLRA...In it, the largest grizzly killed was killed with a .530 patched ball and 120grs FFF... ;)

Pete that's not what I said, a 50 is better than a 40 or 45 but its effectiveness drops quickly between 50 and 75 yds. its a decent deer gun for what I consider close range, if loaded right.

Pehaps this LINK will provide some useful information??

I respect you Lee, so I won't talk to you like I do Bob who has zero experience on the topic.

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever shot an elk at less than 75yds with a .50 PRB? I'm sure you know that ballistic charts are useless when you're trying to figure out the effectiveness of a round ball. The charts are made for CF guns, and maybe they help with modern muzzy guns and bullets too, but not a round ball. The round ball performs way better than the uninformed can imagine. I'm not sure why, and i've never heard a good explanation explaining it. It's just something a PRB shooter knows.

Even the bigger .58 PRB look pathetic on paper, but in practice knocks game on their butts, and few will get back up. When I started to use a PRB to hunt I had my doubts too, but when I witnessed them working I changed my mind fast.

Bob preaches as others do that more modern guns are more effective. Yes, they are for longer ranges. Will a .300 mag kill a deer at 100yds better than a 30-06? Not really if they both use the same weight bullet. Will the .300 mag kill better at 600yds than the 30-06? Yes, i'm sure it does. It's main advantage is distance.

A PRB has many advantages, but has one glaring disadvantage. Distance! Take too long of a shot, and odds go way up for failure. A maxiball will be much better at longer ranges. Does it kill any better at short ranges than a PRB? Not sure what better is if the PRB kills the game?

So, the bottom line is will the .54/.58 kill better than the .50 PRB? Yes, they will at longer ranges. Do they work better at shorter ranges? There we go again with what is better if the .50 kills?

It can even be applied to bows. If a 50lb bow puts the arrow through the elk. How would using a 70lb bow be any better? It's better, because it can put the arrow through the elk at a longer distance. Distance is always the difference.

Of course this can go to the extreme the other way too. No matter how close the shot is a .40 PRB is a horrible choice for elk. Common sense goes a long way in chosen what you hunt with.

Muley I have to agree 100% with everything you said. You've made your point and validated what just about everyone who uses the PRB thinks. Anyone who doesn't understand what you're saying is ignorant to the effectiveness of the PRB and there is no sense continuing the conversation.
As one of our fellow members often quotes "shedding light on a subject does little for the blind".

Good Post Muley.

Keep one thing in mind when talking about any bullet. Equal powder charges of course. If you have a 100grn bullet, and move up to a 200grn bullet you double the energy. But if you have a 100grn bullet, and you double the speed of that bullet, you quadruple the energy. Speed kills, and it wouldn't be any different with a PRB.

Where I come from we don't talk down to people. It is considered being not nice. And as far as personal attacks, you seem to be the only one doing that.

I'm a bow hunter and will only shoot my arrows inside 35 yds. I have not tried to hunt with my sidelocks using a PRB. But if I did, I would more then likely use the same ethic as bow hunting and not try taking a long distance shot.

As a new guy it would be good advice to sit down and listen more to the conversation and what is being said, then jumping in there and attacking the way some people hunt and with what they use to do it with. If you don't like to hunt PRB, great, use what you like and have fun. If not then try keeping your ideas to yourself and hunt your way and be happy!

If you took this advice to heart maybe the others wouldn't be talking about you and your trying to press your ideas about how bad it is using PRB's! Ideas and thoughts are great, but a lot of folks don't take it kindly when their way of hunting is attacked!!!!!

Not trying to make this look like a personal attack but some friendly advice from an old guy!!

Shoot straight and have fun in the woods! Merry Christmas my friend.