Yeah, I sure do.
 

Muley,

Surprised? I didn't think so. Just as one failure with a particular bullet does not mean that all of them are trash, neither does one success validate the use of similar bullets. This was what I was trying to bring out in a previous thread. I realize that many people are committed to a binary, either-or choice; just look at politics. :barmy: I can't convince anyone on either side of a fence to examine their viewpoint. What I was hoping to do was to get those people who do not have an emotional investment in their choice to look at the question scientifically, and come to a conclusion that is unaffected by prior bias.

To me, this is a question of ethics. I remember many years ago standing by a tree, in the waning light of the last day of deer season. On a gentle rise, a moderate distance away, was a doe. Her position afforded me only a skyline shot, which I did not take. I hoped she would come down over the hill, giving me a shot with a good backstop. She went down over the rise, but the other way! Oh, well.

I don't tell you this story to impress you with what an ethical hunter I am; I'm sure a great many of you would have made the same choice. I tell you this so that you might examine the ethics of your choice of load.

Just think of how many good conicals you could get by melting down all those roundballs!

OldBob

No need to examine my ethics in this case. I've used enough PRB's to know they work fine when the hunter does everything else right.

I posted this to simply show a PRB can kill an elk like this. Some think they don't have enough power to kill a doe.

Probably about your age....ancient:poke:

Sometime soon people will stop this stupid conversation and realize that our fore fathers hunted with PRB's and put a lot of food on the table!!! Everyone has his prejudices on the bullets they like. Don't knock another bullet choice, it only shows your ignorance!!!

Now if you really have something nice or relevant to add to this discussion without bashing someone else's choice of bullet, please do so. If not check out the fishing section or something!!! Thank you and have a Merry Christmas.

Relevant?
 

The Lewis & Clark expedition learned the hard way that their prb was inadequate for killing Grizzly.

I believe this is a fact.

Me, i have no experience with prb, and have no opinion of prb. I don't believe i am knocking a bullet choice, but i do believe i am ignorant. What i wrote may not be relevant, or nice, but i couldn't find the fishing section.

I agree Ron. I wouldn't go after a grizzly with my gun, but luckily we don't have any where I live. At least that's what they say, and i've seen any sign.

Here's what they thought of grizzly back in the day.



“…more information pertaining to the grizzly than any other group of people during the nineteenth century. If a list describing the nature of the grizzly bear had been compiled by mountain men from their actual experiences and sent to St. Louis to serve as a warning to the greenhorn who would be coming to the summer rendezvous, the following images of the grizzly…could have been included: no fear of man, almost impossible to kill, expert swimmers, faster than our horses, unbelievable strength, kills bison, buries kill in hole, strikes with forepaw, will return and maul victim if tormented, will avoid man if possible, tears up ground when wounded, will attack gun when fired upon, attacks horses, attacks at night, cubs are ferocious, country abounds with, does not climb tree, must have guards around camp at night for protection against, must shoot in eye or just behind ear to kill, guns only infuriate, often plays dead, attacks with open mouth, drawn into camp by food cooking, poor eyesight, will try to dig up tree or break them down when trapper has sought their safety, bites and scratches at wound with claws, large as ox, person should stand and face if attacked, will come within a few yards and stand on hind legs and look you in the eye, if you run you’re dead, one shot thirty times before killed, trapper usually in shock for one-half hour after encounter with…” – Mountain Man & Grizzly, Pg. 10

Heck YA!!!!

LOL!!! Looks to be about 50% truth and 50% bull hocky in that one Pete. Me personally, I don't think I would intentionally go after a Brownie with a single shot ANYTHING. I don't care if it was a shoulder fired rocket launcher. Not without something for backup on my hip. Browns are a tough critter with some serious weapons of their own.

I personally don't trust the PRB. I shot a lot of them when I was a kid shooting rabbits and rock chucks. I have never personally hunted with them. I have helped a couple guys look for animals that they lost with a PRB.
I followed up an elk that was shot with a PRB. The hunter was with me for a while and I looked back and he had turned around and left. I met up with a friend and together we found the elk and he tagged it. It was shoulder shot and the ball didn't do the job.

I also followed up and elk shot with a 405 all lead power belt. The hunter shot and left. I saw the elk go down with my binoculars so I hiked there. The shooter was long gone and I was left with a dilemma. Do I finish off the elk and tag it or look for one that I shot on my own. I saw the elks head up and it was lying down in the brush. When I walked up it jumped up and ran and I shot it. It was hit in the hips and was hurt bad, and I think I made the right choice.

The fact is anyone can loose or kill any animal with any projectile. I hunt with only gear I have trust in. I don't hunt with a PRB and I don't hunt with Power Belts. I know both will cleanly take game but I don't have faith in them.

Taking a shoulder shot with a PRB is not smart. If that's what a hunter is going to do they're better off with a heavy conical.

I have enough self control to avoid shoulders. Plus, there's meat on the shoulder. Why shoot it?

Very good post!!!

Confidence in your equipment means a lot. Now I've never shot anything with a PRB that I didn't find. Sometimes it took until the next day. My friend shot a nice fat doe one time at about 60 yards. He couldn't believe he missed the deer as it showed no sign of a hit. Luckily there was snow in the ground and we tracked it and found it in a pile a bit over 100 yards into the brush. It never bled a single drop but was hit behind the shoulder through both lungs.
That was a .490 PRB over 100 gr of FFFg way back when we could only use balls in PA.
Now - I'm still waiting to bust something with my .58 using a PRB.
I wish I had a .58 in a flinter.

I believe the 54 and 58 would show much better results with patch round balls. If PA went back to roundballs only I would look into a 54 or 58 for sure.

A PRB is like a Powerbelt. What I mean is if you push them too fast they overexpand, and won't penetrate. That means no passthrough, and maybe no blood trail. The closer the shot. The worse it is.

No need to use 100gr 3F for a doe. I don't use that much for elk. Everybody talks about our forefathers using a PRB successfully. That's right they did. They didn't use heavy powder loads.

For deer all you need for a .50 is 70gr of 2F. It will pass through unless you're shooting beyond what a PRB should be shot. Even at 70gr it will expand just fine, but won't pancake.

You talking to me?
 

rafsob,

I'll answer this post anyway. Yes, our forefathers harvested, and probably wounded, much game with the PRB. Likewise, the Native Americans with the arms available to them did the same thing. Google "Megafauna Extinctions". You know what? The Native Americans couldn't afford nostalgia, since they needed arms not only to hunt, but to defend themselves from the murderous savages who had invaded the continent. So, whenever they got the chance to upgrade, they did, going to smoothbore arms, then rifled arms, then to repeaters. I just seriously doubt that they sat around the campfire bemoaning the abandonment of the bow and arrow and the spear.

At some point, I think we have to ask ourselves if our slavish devotion to some aspect of outdated technology is diminishing our sport, and ourselves. It's a conversation we need to have, realizing that people may disagree on the answer. Better to disagree than to avoid the question.

OldBob

I'll make you a deal Bob. I won't tell you how to hunt, and you do the same for me.

I've never lost an animal in 60 years of hunting. Some guys who use magnum CF rifles can't say that.

Colorado thinks using a PRB is fine, and that's why it's legal. I don't use a PRB, because I want to be Jerimiah Johnson. I use them, because they work.

No deal
 

Muley,

Oh, I suspect you don't want to hear from me, so I'll refrain from replying to your posts. I won't send you any emails, or anything like that. But as I said, this is a conversation we hunters need to have. I think the majority on this forum, with no regulatory coercion, have been seeking projectiles that they hope perform better. It may be one of those transitional periods, like the time immediately after the Civil War, where many new technologies were tried, and most fell by the wayside.

But on a closing note, may you always shoot true, and good luck to you.

OldBob

I have no problem with you Bob. Did we argue in the past? I hold no grudges, so I forget fast.

You can post your opinion all you want, but expect me to respond if you tell me what i'm doing isn't humane for the game. If you knew me well you'd know how concerned I am that the animal doesn't suffer. That's why I always hunt close, and why i'm so picky about the shots I take.

I agree a PRB is a bad choice for long shots. For close shots it's very effective. My guns have deep rifling, and a slow twist made for a PRB. They're very accurate at my range.

I think he's just saying there are more effective bullets then round balls. And I think you understand and believe that. Your so disciplined on how you shoot, I think most aren't even when they claim to be. Maybe when I get older I'll be more patient like you.:s4::wink:

I agree Tom. I know the PRB is not the best bullet to shoot. I try to get that across in my posts so nobody will choose it by mistake.

If you respect the limits of the PRB. Go ahead and shoot it. Otherwise pick a more modern bullet.


I also like BP shoots, and an occasional rendezvous too. Doing it all with one gun makes sense to me. If you want to get to know your gun. Use it for everything. Within reason of course.

A light loaded PRB is great for small game too. :biggrin:

Yep...35 grs. of powder works great in the .40, .50 and .54 caliber. Them rabbits and squirrels don't go nowhere, when shot with any of them. ;)

You got me thinking about lite loads getting my Flintlock ready. My Lyman Deerstalker is so short, I bet I don't burn 100grns of powder. I think I'm gonna drop to 90 for now.

What powder are you using? I forgot.

Grouse, unless your rifle is less than 16 inches and you are using lighter than 150 grain bullet you will have no problems burning 100 grains in that barrel. BP is fast. Most loads have burnt the powder within the first nine inches. Now if you are shooting a tiny little bullet or one that is pretty loose then you will have the problem of unburnt powder. This is quite easily verified using the white sheet method.

I had a 45 1/20 twist barrel made for it. I'm using Goex black powder. I'm gonna use a 200grn bullet.

I'm not a fan of shooting over white paper, or snow. Black powder is very inefficient, and will always blow out unburned powder. A lot of what some think is unburned powder is really residue. Of course the more you use the more will blow out. It doesn't mean the load is wrong. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Sort of falls into the old wives tales of black powder.

Sounds fine. What bullet?

Bob, I really wish you would kinda back up a little bit on your campaign for everyone to stop using PRB's. Many on here like to use them and do so with extreme effectiveness. Pete is one of them. I myself used them back in the dark ages when I was young and seriously into black powder shooting. I don't now mainly because I am getting into the more modern aspects of the sport in my old age. That and I don't have a BP rifle that is suitable for PRB. My Hawk is 1:28 twist and just doesn't like shooting them worth diddly. Maybe one day I will get back into them but my "one days" are getting shorter daily. They just don't trip me trigger like they used to. They are an effective bullet when used properly just like EVERY other means of hunting out there. No matter what bullet or platform one chooses to hunt with, they have to know their limitations. Period. Just like CF rifles, there are better bullets, but that doesn't mean that the PRB is useless or ineffective or unethical. There are tons better bullets than cup and core bullets for CF rifles yet I don't see yo on a campaign to stop the use of them. Just because something may or may not be better doesn't mean that the other thing is useless and unethical.

Yep and you can pretty easily tell what's residue and what is actually unburnt powder. Quality of the powder also has a LOT to do with that as well.

I thought you were hunting the muzzy season here? With that bullet you can use hot loads. I was talking about using a PRB with lighter loads.

The grade too. 2F with show more unburned than 3F.

No matter what you use. It won't all burn. Even with the long barreled Kentucky rifles.

It's why BP is not that powerful. I'm not saying anything you don't know already.

I'm getting my Flintlock ready for PA hunting.

Oh yeah no powder burns every kernel. Even my Swiss (best dang RBP on the market in my opinion) will have some kernels blow out. But you get my point. What is going to burn is usually burnt by 9 or so inches in a barrel.

That reminds me about Hollywood. You're right about black powder burning fast. Getting back to Hollywood. You know how in westerns they always make a trail of black powder to a keg of powder. They light the powder, and you see it burning slowly along the trail of powder to the keg, and the keg blows up.

The problem is you know they were talking about black powder by the timeline. Black powder wouldn't do that. It would burn so fast it would just be a long flash, and the guy would blow himself up.

What they use in the movies to make it burn slow is smokeless powder. Not even invented yet.

Hollywood...you got to love them.

Yep...they sure aren't using black in those scenes. Course they do a lot of things that are amazing. :)

Yep, six shooters firing 12 shots without a reload! Marshal Dillion always being faster on the draw even though he made molasses look quick! Fanning a Colt with 1 inch grouping at 50 yards! (that one always gave me a good giggle) Bullets sparking when they hit a car. Cars blowing up when you shoot them in the gas tank! No wonder the majority of Americans know so little about firearms. Hollywood has their heads so full of stupid it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Yep...the list could be very, very long. :)

On a rainy day between seasons...love the old westerns. I especially like those 12 shots in a 6 shooter with that 13th being the gun thrown at the enemy.
I think the point was well taken that every form of gun equipment has limits. Recognizing those limits coupled with the shooters abilities and knowledge means ethical hunting.

Riding full gallop in the dark they can out shoot me from x-sticks in the daylight. :)