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Ballistic Charts
Originally Posted by Mr.Flintlock
(Post 4225434)
Well Old Bob, your statement that you consider hunting with round ball less than .600 to be unethical, also says that you consider anyone who hunts with patched round balls less than .600 unethical hunters, even though you said it "nicely." I take exception to that!
Perhaps I was not sufficiently explicit in my statement. I was not directed toward any individual or group; it was merely the recognition of the ballistic properties of the round ball. I have hunted with patched round balls since 1980 and have had great success with them over the years. I do not have a track record of wounding deer. I have used patched round balls from .445 - .575 and all of the standard calibers in between for all of these years. I will admit that patched round balls are not a 200 yard bullet but at moderate ranges (10 - 75 yards) they are very accurate and kill quickly and cleanly. I make this statement, not from something that I read out of a magazine but from personal experience. I'm not a big fan of magazines, which these days seem to be additional advertising for the magazine's clients. What I have been quoting is from the ballistic tables that are in virtually every reloading manual. I'll bet most of us have a bunch of these manuals on our bookshelves. I know that there are those of you who can quote all kinds of ballistic data from charts but deer don't read charts. Neither do many hunters, apparently. I never expected the reaction toward me for asking what was to me, a simple question. I think this is because many never make it past the FPS readings for their load of choice. The only deer that I have ever shot with a .445 round ball. went down like I had hit him in the head with a baseball bat. The last deer that I shot was with a .570 round ball and he ran 35 yards and crashed. No matter what a hunter chooses as a tool to hunt with, he/she must know the limitations of the equipment that they are using and must also know their own personal limitations and place that shot exactly where it needs to go. That is what an ethical hunter does. Those who will take a marginal shot at game with any gun, bow or bullet combination are unethical hunters. It is personally insulting to me that you would lump all of us who hunt with patched round ball into the unethical hunter group. Hence my original question: given these arributes of the roundball, why would you choose to use one, when there are projectiles that do not have thses liabilities, and can provide as good or better terminal performance? OldBob |
Who, me?
Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
(Post 4226036)
Sounds to me like you are a weekend warrior just looking to extend the season rather than enjoy the true meaning behind muzzle loading.
Lots of guys like you buy flinters of sidelocks and say, Mine wouldnt shoot for crud! Well, after reading some responses, My take it you just don't want to take the time to learn. I'll try it again, although I'm not expecting much. This is about my granddaughter! Right now, I couldn't shoot a muzzleloader, or anything else but a crossbow, because the shoulder I dislocated in 1966 right before I got out of the Navy has turned into absolute junk. If I could somehow lift the rifle, the pain of the recoil would kinda take the fun out of it. Oddly enough, I did have an opportunity during archery season. I went outside, and uphill from the house, about 60 yards away, were two deer. I could have gone into the house, sneaked around the side and up through the woods, and killed one of them. These are the deer that hang around here all the time, ignore the dogs, and ignore me when I'm mowing the grass 20 yards from them. I never did come to a decision as to whether or not this would have been an ethical harvest. Is this your concept of a gamehog? OldBob |
Old Bob, I appreciate your response. based on what you are saying, why would anyone hunt with any muzzleloading rifle when a 300 magnum will provide better ballistics, is less affected by the wind and therefore provide much better downrange performance? For that matter why would you or anyone hunt with archery equipment of any kind, including crossbows? Arrows/bolts are affected by the wind even more than a round ball. According to my 10th edition Lyman Black powder handbook. a .535 RB with a MV of 1600fps will drift 2.45" @ 50 yards with a 10mph cross wind. The average range that I have shot deer is about 35 yards and I don't hunt in tree bending wind. So, I stand by what I originally stated that knowing the limitations of the equipment that we use and knowing our own personal limitations and passing up marginal shots is what helps make an ethical hunter.
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Those days are gone.
Originally Posted by Mr.Flintlock
(Post 4227077)
Old Bob, I appreciate your response. based on what you are saying, why would anyone hunt with any muzzleloading rifle when a 300 magnum will provide better ballistics, is less affected by the wind and therefore provide much better downrange performance? For that matter why would you or anyone hunt with archery equipment of any kind, including crossbows? Arrows/bolts are affected by the wind even more than a round ball. According to my 10th edition Lyman Black powder handbook. a .535 RB with a MV of 1600fps will drift 2.45" @ 50 yards with a 10mph cross wind. The average range that I have shot deer is about 35 yards and I don't hunt in tree bending wind. So, I stand by what I originally stated that knowing the limitations of the equipment that we use and knowing our own personal limitations and passing up marginal shots is what helps make an ethical hunter.
'Way back when, the .300 Magnum was one of my favorites. I hunted from the edge of fields, and I think the closest shot I ever made in those days was 50 yards. That's long in the past, and my hunting is limited by my physical limitations. These days, the crossbow is my best choice, due to no recoil and light weight. I won't shoot any farther than I am willing to drag, and try to position myself so that any potential shot is uphill, so that the drag is downhill. I made myself a sturdy 6 foot walking stick (1 1/4") that I can use as a lever to pull the drag tarp. I want to hunt as long as I am able. I'll figure out a way to circumvent my orthopedic problems. My original question was directed at those people who are not necessarily as physically constained as I am. I think that with proper, though period correct iron sights, and better loads, the flintlock could easily be a 200 yard tool. I'm not talking about "stunts", here, but sport hunting. That same equipment would be no handicap for your 35 yard shot, either. I think anything that reduces the chance for wounded or lost animals is a positive thing. Yes, there are a lot of slobs in the woods. As I said at one point, the multiple shot string during regular deer season seems to be more the norm than the exception. It is the single gunshot that signifies (hopefully) a clean kill that is uncommon enough to be noteworthy. No matter what equipment those people choose, they're still slobs. I was never an opportunistic hunter, as MD54 accused me of being, just using a new hunting season to increase my woods time and chances of success. I do, however, draw the line at using anything that is less than the best available, within the limits of the regulations. That is why many years ago, when the regs limited you to use of the roundball, I did not hunt with a muzzleloader. There were, and are, better options. That is my question, then: if regulations are not limiting you to less-efficient loads, why use them? For me, nostalgia is reminiscing about when I could drag a deer for a mile, not the load that brought him to bag. OldBob |
In your thought process Bob, why use a muzzleloader at all? Why have a muzzleloader season? Why even hunt since we can get our meat at a grocery store!? See where I'm going with that? The roundball, in the right hands, is an extremely effective bullet. It's not one that I prefer but there are many out there that are very deadly with their use. We have one hunter on here, IdahoRob I think is the ID, that can accurately take out speed goats at 200 yards with PRB loads and a peep sight! Think he is a slob hunter? The man practices diligently all year long. Many on this site are just like him. Mentalities such as yours are what will lead to the elimination of our hunting rights. Plain and simple. With your way of thinking, why use my traditional archery rigs rather than my compound rigs? Even though I can bust nochs just as easily at 25 yards with my traditional rigs as I can with my compounds, your way of thinking suggests that I am a "slob" hunter just because of the equipment I CHOOSE to use! I hunt within the LIMITS of my chosen equipment and stick to those limits hard and fast. Most people that I know are the same way. It's the "magnum" crowds out there today using the latest and greatest magnum cartridges that are wounding more deer than ANY of us primitive equipment users because they think the have a magic magnum and trying shots at MUCH greater yardages than they are capable of. You will find most of the traditional hunters out there are 10 times more ethical than ANYONE.
I find your statements personally insulting and rude. It's thinking such as yours that will be the end of hunting in the future. |
Originally Posted by OldBob47
(Post 4226035)
NC,
Nice pictures, but let me correct a possible misconception. I'm most definitely not adverse to flintlocks. If my granddaughter does decide to hunt with a muzzleloader, I hope she chooses the flintlock. If you want to go traditional, why not the wheelock or the matchlock? This probably sounds like I am being facetious, but I am not. Those fire control mechanisms strike me as being difficult and tedious, and I cannot see me ever being interested in them, but there's nothing inherently wrong with using either one. The ethics of the hunt are based upon the accuracy of your platform, and the ballistic efficiency of the load that it launches, among other things. "Ease of Use" is, to me, an intangible that does not enter into the equation, unless it affects your ability to humanely harvest game. The flintlock is a well-proven platform. OldBob |
Isn't this a hunting forum?
Originally Posted by super_hunt54
(Post 4227108)
In your thought process Bob, why use a muzzleloader at all? Why have a muzzleloader season? Why even hunt since we can get our meat at a grocery store!? See where I'm going with that?
No, I sure don't. This is a hunting forum. We have an obligation to harvest game as humanely as possible. When we fall short of that goal, and an anti-hunting zealot witnesses it, the hunter's failure is what will end sport hunting. The roundball, in the right hands, is an extremely effective bullet. I can't think of a less effective bullet. It's not one that I prefer but there are many out there that are very deadly with their use. We have one hunter on here, IdahoRob I think is the ID, that can accurately take out speed goats at 200 yards with PRB loads and a peep sight! Think he is a slob hunter? The man practices diligently all year long. Many on this site are just like him. Yes, he's an EXPERT! The tools of an expert may fall far short of the best performance in the hands of the average shlub. When they formulate game regulations, they don't have IdahoRob in mind. The one they have in mind is the guy who just walked out of Dick's, or whatever, with his brand-new rig and some half-remembered instructions from some sales clerk. Mentalities such as yours are what will lead to the elimination of our hunting rights. Plain and simple. With your way of thinking, why use my traditional archery rigs rather than my compound rigs? Even though I can bust nochs just as easily at 25 yards with my traditional rigs as I can with my compounds, your way of thinking suggests that I am a "slob" hunter just because of the equipment I CHOOSE to use! I'll try this again. Its not the platform, its the ammo. you wouldn go hunting with field points, for example, which would perform poorly even if you shot them out of a Matrix 405. I hunt within the LIMITS of my chosen equipment and stick to those limits hard and fast. Most people that I know are the same way. It's the "magnum" crowds out there today using the latest and greatest magnum cartridges that are wounding more deer than ANY of us primitive equipment users because they think the have a magic magnum and trying shots at MUCH greater yardages than they are capable of. You will find most of the traditional hunters out there are 10 times more ethical than ANYONE. I find your statements personally insulting and rude. It's thinking such as yours that will be the end of hunting in the future. OldBob |
However, prohibiting lead bullets would be a regulatory change, bypassing Congress. 2. The EPA has long stated that it has no authority to regulate lead bullets. 3. Federal appeals courts have twice ruled that the EPA has no authority to regulate lead bullets. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-lead-bullets/ |
Huh?
Originally Posted by nchawkeye
(Post 4227117)
Because I'm a history buff that likes the Revolutionary War, flintlocks were used then... ;)
OldBob |
Falcon, I hope they don't require me to register my Lee molds. :s2:
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