OldBob47

Oh, I like the .54. Thanks to Del Ramsey, we can load them with just about any bullet from .45 to full bore. This gives us versatility unmatched by any other caliber. However, (I'm trying to figure out how to say this nicely) I do not consider use of a roundball smaller than .600 to be ethical game harvesting. You may do whatever your ethics dictate. I will use the most effective combination that I can find.

OldBob

Semisane

Well DANG, OldBob. You're considering the Colonist, the Frontiersman, and all other early Americans unethical? It turns out Davy and Daniel weren't the heroes I thought they were. (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.)

MountainDevil54

super_hunt54

Sorry to tell you this OldBob, but the old roundball has stacked up more meat than you could count. If used within it's limitations there is absolutely no concern about ethical kills. I personally don't like them all that much except for maybe in using a .32 cal squirrelie rifle that I may just pick up soon for giggles. May just get ole semisane to fix my blind rear up with one that I can actually use But for a deer/elk/moose rifle I will stick to the more efficient connies and sabots but NOT because of ethics concerns, just a personal preference. If I were to go get me a .54 or .58 then I would probably consider a round ball.

OldBob47

The rules for hunting from necessity are different from sport hunting. It doesn't matter how many you wound or kill needlessly as long as you get meat for the table.
OldBob

OldBob47

[QUOTE=super_hunt54;4224824]Sorry to tell you this OldBob, but the old roundball has stacked up more meat than you could count.

So has the 22LR; happens up here now and then.

If used within it's limitations there is absolutely no concern about ethical kills.

I had this discussion maybe 40 years ago with a bowhunter. The gear of the time was not like we have today, but "Charlie" had a really good track record. He really was an expert hunter and archer. I argued to him that we shouldn't base game regulations on what the expert can do with his chosen equipment. The difference between the expert and the ordinary hunter is that the expert has a keen awarness of what the limitations are, and when those limitations have become even more constrained by changing field conditions, wind, primarily.
I saw a deer a few weeks ago, just across the road from my house. It looked so close that you'd think you could have hit it with a thrown rock. I went inside and got the rangefinder, The deer hadn't moved, and it was 49.5 yards away. That's right at the edge of the range I would shoot with a roundball shotgun load, the crossbow I will be using, or any roundball ML. If I had been presented such a shot in season, would I hesitate? I hope so, but some people might not. People screw up shots like this with a scoped .30-'06! Go out and actually listen to the shooting during rifle season. You OFTEN hear strings of 3,4,5,or 6 shots! This isn't because those 150 Gr. '06 pills are bouncing off the deer, its because they screwed up their first shot. And, these multiple shot strings are the rule, not the exception. ML hunters are probably not much better these days, with game commissions inventing new seasons to maximize profit. So, the most ethical game harvest will occur when we encourage the ordinary hunter to use the very best tools for the job.

I personally don't like them all that much except for maybe in using a .32 cal squirrelie rifle that I may just pick up soon for giggles. May just get ole semisane to fix my blind rear up with one that I can actually use But for a deer/elk/moose rifle I will stick to the more efficient connies and sabots but NOT because of ethics concerns, just a personal preference.

Yeah, your preference is for Bambi to take an immediate dirt nap when you squeeze the trigger. Mine, too.

OldBob

super_hunt54

Actually my preference is based on existing equipment in my safes. I own 2 .50cal with both having 1:28 twist. That aint roundball twist.

OldBob47

Well, it is and it isn't. I guess that covers it all. That is, twist rate is only a number. What we are trying to acheive is an optimum rotational speed, which does not degrade as velocity does. I want to eventually acquire a Lyman Trade Rifle. They have a 1-48 twist, supposedly not ideal for roundball. Wait a minute! The rotational speed of a bullet exiting the muzzle of a 1-60 twist gun at 1800 FPS would be the same as a bullet exiting a 1-48 twist at 1440 FPS. This fits in with my idea of using a 230 XTP at the latter velocity. The bullet would be marginally above the speed of sound at 100 yards, avoiding accuracy problems from crossing that barrier. The energy would equal that of the roundball with MV of 1800 FPS. The benefits would be the reduced wind drift, and the greatly reduced recoil due to using about 60 grains of powder. That's what abandoning the roundball gains you.

With a 1-28 twist, you would have to drive the roundball much slower, say 840 FPS. That's not a practical hunting load, but it might make a mild and economical plinking or target load. Substitute a cast 185 .451 bullet in a sabot for your .50 cals, and you might have a squirrel harvester. All kinds of ways to skin this cat.

OldBob

MountainDevil54

230gr XTP & 60 grains of powder? Now who's being unethical

OldBob47

Not me. Now, bear in mind, while we may question the velocity vs charge weights that a manual publishes, the velocity loss is subject only to the science of ballistics. Data obtained is measurable and repeatable.

Lyman's data on page 260 of the Black Powder Handbook, 2nd edition, shows 120 Gr of FFg propelling a .535, 230 Gr roundball to 1803 FPS. Remaining velocity at 100 yards is 1093, and the energy is 610 ftlbs. On page 237, 60 Gr of FFFg gives 1435 FPS. Here's where we stop and substitute our XTP. Hornady says the BC is .188. So, I took the data from and old Speer #11 for a .190 BC, on page 520. Starting at 1400 FPS, remaining velocity at 100 Yards is 1149, and the energy is 673, about 10% higher than the roundball. Actually, both the velocity and energy would be higher still, due to the extra 35 FPS over our 1400 FPS data. However, no need to get that precise. The XTP is better at 100 yards than the roundball, with half the powder.

According to Hornady's data, the expansion range of the XTP is 600-1650, so the middle of that range is 1125. Our 230 XTP load is just slightly above that at 100 yards, and does not exceed the velocity expansion range even at the muzzle. A little Googling show that people who have used this bullet seem to really like it.

What part of this strikes you as unethical?

Old Bob