Too little powder???
 

I spent a couple of hours this afternoon trying to sight in a new scope on a CVA Optima. I am shooting T/C Sure Fire 230 grain in Mag Express sabots. I had a target set up at 50 yds, figured I did not need much powder so I was shooting one 60 grain 777 mag and the Winchester Triple Seven primer. First shot missed everything so I moved the target up to about 25 yds. I got the next one on the target and did some adjusting to center it. The adjusting had no effect as I shot and moved the target a little farther away. I was swabbing between shots and making no progress. A guy came up as I was loading my 8th and final shot. I missed the entire target again. He said that the bullet hit the ground about half way to the target. It also sounded a little different as had one or two of the others. On the way home I was ruminating over the bad showing and I think I know what was going on. I was not using enough powder to obdurate??? the sabot with a light bullet and it was sometimes not sealing the gas behind it. Certainly the last shot must have done that and maybe some of the others. Next trip I will use two 50 grain pellets and see if things improve. Any other thoughts on what is going on?

I would suspect/check your powder. It could be bad powder. The reason I say this is I dry hole set a roundball once in my life.. :biggrin: And to get it out I removed the nipple and packed powder down the bolster. I might have gotten 5 grains down there I am guessing. When I aimed down range at a 25 yard target the rifle not only shot that ball out the barrel, but it hit the target and bounced almost half way back to me. My black Labrador (as he loved to do) took off snooped around came to me and handed me the roundball. So even 60 grains you loaded, should have been plenty.

When you seated the sabot did it fall down the bore almost? I suspect not. While you might not have gotten great accuracy, I really suspect its the powder.

Your future range report will be most interesting.

Cayugad, the powder is not old, I bought it maybe three months ago. I keep the box in a plastic bag inside the house which is air conditioned so it should not have picked up moisture. Your suggestion does make sense, I will use the 50 grain pellets next time, they are sealed better in those tubes. The sabot and bullet did not seem to be undersized, it took some real pressure to get them down the barrel. Another though is maybe I am using too much Windex on the swabbing patch, but I follow that up with a dry patch so I should not---but I am using a shotgun cleaning rod and that does not get the patch all of the way to the bottom against the breech plug like a jag would. I may be wetting down some of the powder. I may need to lighten up on the Windex.

That very well could be. With the shotgun rod, you might be pushing water down to the bottom of the breech and that would foul the load. When you cleaned it, was there a large amount of powder fouling in front of the breech plug?

Jenks...

If you're spraying windex onto your patch... fold the patch a few times and squeeze it between your fingers after you spray it so that you remove the excess moisture. You only want the patch damp, not wet. If you want to assure that you're getting any excess moisture out of the breech area, get yourself a patch worm that will fit the threads of your rod. After you've wiped the bore dry, wad up a dry patch and push it down to the bottom and tamp it lightly then leave it set for 10-15 seconds. Screw on the patch worm and retrieve it. If it feels damp then repeat the process. This should help "wick" any excess moisture out of the breech area. I've taken deer with a 60 gr charge so I seriously doubt that it's a question of not enough powder.

BPS

No way 60gr is too little, and your bullet/sabot is fine. Something ain't right. Next time use a JAG with either a spit patch or just a VERY LIGHTLY dampened windex patch, or alcohol patch. Then follow with a dry patch. See if that makes a difference. Sounds like it could be damp powder due to the method you were using. Thats the only thing that even makes any sense to me.

I guess there is the remote possibility that the pellets could be bad, but since you said they were pretty new that is not as likely. If on your next trip you don't get the results you expect, I'd pick up some new loose powder and go from there.

I think the answer is that I was flooding the breech area. I was using Windex in a small dishwashing detergent bottle instead of the spray type bottle and got the patches wet, not damp. I did squeeze them out but I am sure that there was still too much moisture. I have cleaning jags and worms, it just seems faster to use the shotgun rod--I will go back to the jag. I sometimes lose one in the bore with the jag and the shotgun rod does not allow that to happen. And yes, during this ordeal I pulled the breech plug and it had a damp residue caked up on the end. I did not catch on at the time, but it was most likely unburned powder. Us BP new guys seem to have to try to do things wrong first.

Two licks on a patch is all you need to clean a 1 shot bore. Compare two licks to what you were doing, and you'll see how you went wrong.

Agree....all I ever use is a spit patch, unless I'm shooting alot of rounds - which isn't that often.

Jenks, sounds like you are on the way to better groups :)

Sounds to me like you have a number of problems. A 230 grain works well in a 1-38 twist and it sounds like your powder was wet either from something your were doing or because it has gathered moisture 777 will under some circumstances gather moisture like a sponge.
My recommendation would be to get a can of Pyrodex and a hand full of bullets in .452 dia. and in weights of 250, 275 and 300 grains and try 90, 100 and 110 grains of volume measured powder, if those won't shoot look for a scope or loose mount or loose sight problem.
.230 grain bullets are kind of short for a 1-28 twist and some guns just won't shoot them at all well. If the gun is loading the sabot and bullet without much effort it is probably to loose to shoot good.

Not sure the bullet is the problem Lee. My Wolf will shoot a PRB accurately with 60-80gr of powder. You can't get much shorter than a round ball. No way should his bullet be hitting the dirt.

So you just bought the pellets! How long had they been in storage at the dealers? How did the dealer store them?
I agree get some loose powder, Lot easier to see if loose powder is loaded with moisture. Also ditch the Windex go with a spit patch.

We for years playing around with black powder and PRB only used 60gr. max real black to shoot 100 yd targets.


:D Al

Guys, I am confident that the 230 grain bullet and sabot is not too loose--maybe too short but not too loose. I do have some 250 grain Hornady SST's that I can try if I can not get the 230's to do any good. I was going to get the scope in the ball park with the cheap stuff before I tuned it for the SST's. I also have a supply of Pyrodex RS loose powder that I use in a side hammer and some 777 pellets in the 50 grain tubes. I do not think the 60 grain pellets were damaged--at least not while I have owned them. I think the main problem was too much moisture so I will try to fix that first. After that, it will be a powder and bullet change. I did check the mount(one of those Durasights that CVA sells) and the scope(Redfield Revenge Sabot ML). All seems to be tight. This is a nice outfit, I just need to get it to shoot. I do appreciate all of the advice.

My money is on the swabbing. I swab with a moist patch (alcohol and windex), then a dry patch, and then snap a primer before loading the next shot.

I've never felt a need to waste a primer after swabbing.

Lick a patch, and run it down the bore in small steps. Turn it over, and run it down again. Run one dry patch down on both sides. Load and shoot.

The important part is the licking of the patch. Just a fast lick, or two. It barely gets part of one side of the patch damp. The other side is bone dry.

REDEMPTION--I took the rifle out behind the house today, I did not want to return to the shooting range behind the gun store where they would probably hoot and jeer if I shot into the ground half way to the target again. I got rid of the "pour it on" bottle of Windex and got one with the little spray pump. Sorry guys, I am not going to lick a patch that was probably made from African cotton, raised right in the middle of the ebola outbreak. I still use the shotgun cleaning rod, but I follow that with a cleaning jag. I set up a target just over 100' away and stood resting the gun on stacked up bags of dirt on top of the bed of my pickup. I loaded one 60 grain pellet and the 230 grain bullets, the first two shots were a little low. The third shot I used an unknown 240 grain bullet and two 50 grain pellets, it was a little high. The last shot was with two 60 grain pellets and a 250 grain SST, it was right on the nose. These four shots were dispursed 2 and 1/4 inches up and down and 1/4 inch left and right center to center. If my old truck had better shocks it probably would have been better, but not too bad for a windy day. At any rate the problem was using too much moisture when swabbing. I did not adjust the scope because I do not know how the bullets will fall at 100 yards, this was shooting at a target between 100 and 105 feet from the end of the barrel. I appreciate all of the good info--the too much moisture guys had it right.

I lick certain things, but patches are not among them.

My patches are in a small container, and are likely wetter than a couple licks would acheive. There's the chance for forcing moisture into the plug, as I do use a 50 cal jag which seals the bore well during swabbing. Never had a misfire, but also always pop a primer after swabbing.

I'm sure you guys have licked worse things. :p

I don't think my insurance covers getting ebola by licking a patch.

I have, Muley. It smelled like Pyrodex too.

Looks like you have narrowed the problem down and on your way to a solution. I agree with lemoyne and try different weight bullets and different charges to get the best accuracy. My friends and I do not use Pyrodex as we have had very bad results with it. There are a lot of great powders out there to try. Triple Seven is a good choice. I personally love black myself. Triple Seven and black powder ignite when it gets cold and our seasons can get very cold. I deer hunted one morning when it was 17 below zero.
Good Luck and may that trophy buck be in your sights this fall!

Thanks, Hunterdn78. I plan to use 777 in the Optima. I hunt away from home and may not be able to do the cleanup that Pyrodex requires. I think that the 777 residue in a stainless barrel will keep a day or two until I get home. Actually, I think I can do a quick clean on it in the field and a better one later. I hunt in north MO, it does not usually get that cold there. Thanks again and good luck.