My 1st muzzle-loader...
08-22-2013, 10:47 AM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8
My 1st muzzle-loader...
I tried to do a lot of research before I purchased my 1st muzzle-loader. Unfortunately, I allowed myself to be influenced by Randy Wakeman And he scared me out of buying a CVA Wolf, or ANY Spanish-made rifle- CVA's, Traditions', etc... That was BEFORE I read that he works for Savage Arms and a lot of muzzle-loaders think he is full of $#!+. Long story short- I spent $50 more for a TC Impact. Does anyone feel I made a mistake, or is the Impact a better piece?
One thing that did catch my eye is that CVA and Traditions recommend a maximum charge of 150 gr.'s while TC only recommends 120 gr.'s for their piece. The reason I bring this up is because I'm looking at a CVA Buckhorn for its open-breech. My buddy, the MAIN reason I chose to learn about muzzle-loading, lives in Washington and they require open-breeches. Would you guys trust 150 gr.'s in a Buckhorn? If not, is 100 gr.'s powerful enough to humanely kill a white-tail? Is there another open-breech muzzle-loader for under $300 (I'm on a REALLY tight budget.)
I notice 90% of muzzle-loaders are .50 caliber and they all SEEM to hold the same charge. Is the difference in price REALLY a matter of fit-and-finish? I wish to teach my 16 year old daughter about muzzle-loading, but the few rifles I AM able to find under .50 caliber are out of my price-range. I was thinking of using a 50 gr. charge to let her practice. But I get conflicting answers, half the respondents say 50 gr.'s should be fine. The other half say it is NOT enough to push the projectile to satisfactory speed. I don't want to hand her something dangerous. Does anyone have any ideas on what a safe load would be that won't scare her away before she even goes on her 1st hunt?
I apologize if these are silly questions, I truly am a nube and am very excited to have my daughter and I join the ranks of a modern muzzle-loading hunter. Thank you for your time and consideration.
One thing that did catch my eye is that CVA and Traditions recommend a maximum charge of 150 gr.'s while TC only recommends 120 gr.'s for their piece. The reason I bring this up is because I'm looking at a CVA Buckhorn for its open-breech. My buddy, the MAIN reason I chose to learn about muzzle-loading, lives in Washington and they require open-breeches. Would you guys trust 150 gr.'s in a Buckhorn? If not, is 100 gr.'s powerful enough to humanely kill a white-tail? Is there another open-breech muzzle-loader for under $300 (I'm on a REALLY tight budget.)
I notice 90% of muzzle-loaders are .50 caliber and they all SEEM to hold the same charge. Is the difference in price REALLY a matter of fit-and-finish? I wish to teach my 16 year old daughter about muzzle-loading, but the few rifles I AM able to find under .50 caliber are out of my price-range. I was thinking of using a 50 gr. charge to let her practice. But I get conflicting answers, half the respondents say 50 gr.'s should be fine. The other half say it is NOT enough to push the projectile to satisfactory speed. I don't want to hand her something dangerous. Does anyone have any ideas on what a safe load would be that won't scare her away before she even goes on her 1st hunt?
I apologize if these are silly questions, I truly am a nube and am very excited to have my daughter and I join the ranks of a modern muzzle-loading hunter. Thank you for your time and consideration.
08-22-2013, 10:54 AM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 861
Keep the Impact it is a nice gun in that price range and will serve you well. 100 grains of powder is more than sufficient to kill a whitetail or anything else for that matter. Very rarely does 150 grains of powder give the gun its best accuracy with loads in the 100-110 grains being more common.
My question is, do YOU need an open breech? I am confused on that one. You said your buddy does that lives in Washington.
My question is, do YOU need an open breech? I am confused on that one. You said your buddy does that lives in Washington.
08-22-2013, 11:14 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
Psomniferum, most of my hunting loads in a variety of inlines and sidelocks run in the 85 to 95 grain range. In one or two guns i go up to 110 grains because that is the most accurate in them.
Last edited by Semisane; 08-22-2013 at 11:16 AM.
08-22-2013, 11:31 AM
#4
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8
Keep the Impact it is a nice gun in that price range and will serve you well. 100 grains of powder is more than sufficient to kill a whitetail or anything else for that matter. Very rarely does 150 grains of powder give the gun its best accuracy with loads in the 100-110 grains being more common.
My question is, do YOU need an open breech? I am confused on that one. You said your buddy does that lives in Washington.
My question is, do YOU need an open breech? I am confused on that one. You said your buddy does that lives in Washington.
I was gifted a muzzle-loading "pirate" pistol as a teenager and had loads of fun putting it together and shooting it a couple of times, I believe it was a .45 caliber. Other than that, I AM brand new to BP-guns. I trained with an AR-15 and a Beretta 92 while I was in the service. As you know, these muzzle-loaders are a very different animal. So to answer your question- I need an open-breech for when I visit him to go hunting.
As far as I know, California allows closed AND open-breech guns. Which brings another question to mind- can anyone explain WHY WA, OR and ID require open-breech? Also, I'm interested in the Buckhorn because it allows you to switch between different primers- 209, #10's and #11's- I LOVE the versatility it seems to offer. Sorry if my 1st post was a little confusing, hope this clears it up a little :-)
08-22-2013, 11:42 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Either the CVA Wolf or T/C Impact will get the job done. The Impact is a little more BH209 powder friendly right out of the box.
The NEW CVA Wolf is now offered in stainless and you can buy a BH209 plug for roughly $30 if you want to use that powder with good reliability. IMO its a better value than the Impact simply because it available in SS and CVA quality has improved a great deal in the last 4 years.
I would never use a 150gr load in either. It serves no purpose other than advertising hype. VERY few of us shoot can shoot that much powder accurately. It normally will not shoot very well. Plus there are far better ways to get that kind of speed such as the Savage or one of the custom smokeless MLs. 90-120gr of most powders is plenty most of the time. Most people shoot full bore lead conicals with much less powder and those loads will hammer an elk.
I shoot a Savage 50 and a custom Savage 45cal when i want bone jarring speed and accuracy. They can be very frustrating for a beginner to get them to shoot accurately but once you do, its a whole new ball game in ML performance
Both RW and Toby Bridges are "lower male appendages" IMO but RW does not work for Savage. TB used to but he was fired. RW just really likes the Savage and knows how to make them shoot. TB is simply for sale to the highest bidder and right now only Traditions will tolerate his behavior. He has been "let go" by at least 3 big name ML companies over the years.
BTW if you need a PAC northwest compliant ML for Washington, look at the older Knight LKs or the Bighorn. Top quality Green Mountain barrels and very accurate at a reasonable price. A nice used Knight LK or Wolverine can be found for under $200 and they are fine shooters. Several of the fancier Knights can be converted to comply also but we are talking about a $400-500 ML.
The NEW CVA Wolf is now offered in stainless and you can buy a BH209 plug for roughly $30 if you want to use that powder with good reliability. IMO its a better value than the Impact simply because it available in SS and CVA quality has improved a great deal in the last 4 years.
I would never use a 150gr load in either. It serves no purpose other than advertising hype. VERY few of us shoot can shoot that much powder accurately. It normally will not shoot very well. Plus there are far better ways to get that kind of speed such as the Savage or one of the custom smokeless MLs. 90-120gr of most powders is plenty most of the time. Most people shoot full bore lead conicals with much less powder and those loads will hammer an elk.
I shoot a Savage 50 and a custom Savage 45cal when i want bone jarring speed and accuracy. They can be very frustrating for a beginner to get them to shoot accurately but once you do, its a whole new ball game in ML performance
Both RW and Toby Bridges are "lower male appendages" IMO but RW does not work for Savage. TB used to but he was fired. RW just really likes the Savage and knows how to make them shoot. TB is simply for sale to the highest bidder and right now only Traditions will tolerate his behavior. He has been "let go" by at least 3 big name ML companies over the years.
BTW if you need a PAC northwest compliant ML for Washington, look at the older Knight LKs or the Bighorn. Top quality Green Mountain barrels and very accurate at a reasonable price. A nice used Knight LK or Wolverine can be found for under $200 and they are fine shooters. Several of the fancier Knights can be converted to comply also but we are talking about a $400-500 ML.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-22-2013 at 11:53 AM.
08-22-2013, 11:48 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
He's a big BP fan and due to silliness on my part, I told him I was familiar with BP-guns myself.
Just come clean and tell him you overstated your experience "a bit". I suspect as with most muzzle loader enthusiasts he'll be happy to help you along.
Here's a funny thought. He may be a member of this forum, or and unregistered lurker. So your cover may be blown anyway.
08-22-2013, 12:03 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Penns Woods
Posts: 1,628
Long story short- I spent $50 more for a TC Impact. Does anyone feel I made a mistake, or is the Impact a better piece?
One thing that did catch my eye is that CVA and Traditions recommend a maximum charge of 150 gr.'s while TC only recommends 120 gr.'s for their piece.
is 100 gr.'s powerful enough to humanely kill a white-tail? )
I apologize if these are silly questions, I truly am a nube
One thing that did catch my eye is that CVA and Traditions recommend a maximum charge of 150 gr.'s while TC only recommends 120 gr.'s for their piece.
is 100 gr.'s powerful enough to humanely kill a white-tail? )
I apologize if these are silly questions, I truly am a nube
First and foremost... Welcome aboard! I believe you'll find muzzleloading to be very addictive as most of us here have. Your choice in a T/C was a wise one. I'm not trying to diss the other manufacturers because they all make good rifles, it's more a matter of personal preference. While they may not be the same company they were before having been acquired by Smith and Wesson, they are still an American company so some folks in this country are drawing a paycheck thanks to guys like you. I personally own seventeen T/C firearms and I have no complaints.
I think the 120 gr. recommendation is something T/C has stuck with since they first started producing ML rifles of .50 caliber and larger. I sure most of the members here would agree that 100 grains of powder is a very adequate charge for all North American Deer, Black Bear, Elk, or Moose. I don't believe I've ever taken a deer with a charge over 80-85 grains, whether it was pushing a round ball or a conical. That said, I don't shoot long ranges and I hunt in the woods where my shots are usually up close and personal.
You should try several different powders and I also recommend that you use "loose" powder and not pellets for your load development as you can work up your best load in 5 gr. increments to see what your rifle likes the taste of. I think you'll find after some shooting and load development sessions that maximum charges just aren't necessary.
And lastly, there is no such thing as a silly or stupid question, just silly or stupid answers. There are a lot of very knowledgeable fellas on this forum and they're all more than happy to be of help.
BPS
08-22-2013, 12:19 PM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
Welcome to the forum!!!
My load for my Knight is 80grs FFF Goex behind a Hornady 300gr .429 XTP hollowpoint...
Just because a muzzleloader can safely handle more powder does not mean that is the most accurate load...With this load I have killed deer and had pass throughs out to 147 lasered yards...
Think about the 45-70 and how many buffalo were killed with it...When it came out the standard load was 70grs FF black powder behind a 405 lead bullet and thousands if not millions of buffalo were killed with this round...
Have fun!!!
My load for my Knight is 80grs FFF Goex behind a Hornady 300gr .429 XTP hollowpoint...
Just because a muzzleloader can safely handle more powder does not mean that is the most accurate load...With this load I have killed deer and had pass throughs out to 147 lasered yards...
Think about the 45-70 and how many buffalo were killed with it...When it came out the standard load was 70grs FF black powder behind a 405 lead bullet and thousands if not millions of buffalo were killed with this round...
Have fun!!!
08-22-2013, 12:45 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
P - 150 gr is just a waste of powder. I haven't found a ML yet that doesn't shoot its best with 110 or less grains of powder. Of course there are exceptions. Too bad you didn't come on this forum prior to purchasing your Impact. Not that the Impact is not a good ML because it is. But you would have found that there are a lot of guys in here that shoot CVAs - an shoot them extremely well without any issues.
Maybe when you get a few more years behind you, you will be like us older guys that take what those so called experts say with a grain of salt. A lot of it is just promoting a product for financial gain or they just don't know what they are talking about.
Maybe when you get a few more years behind you, you will be like us older guys that take what those so called experts say with a grain of salt. A lot of it is just promoting a product for financial gain or they just don't know what they are talking about.
08-22-2013, 12:54 PM
#10
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
I have handled but never shot a T/C Impact. It seemed like a nice well balanced rifle, and I have to admit, I was interested a great deal in it. BUT I picked a CVA Optima instead. Just some features the Optima had that the Impact did not. Also the Optima was stainless steel and had the quick release breech plug. Again the Impact did not. And last the Optima was $50.00 cheaper.
But I am sure the Impact will serve you very well. The first thing I want you to learn about the magnum muzzleloader. Just because its a magnum does not mean you have to shoot magnum charges. Most of the claims of 150 grains of powder, while true is only hype to see a rifle. Most inlines tune in at 85-110 grains of powder. And that is all the power you need to harvest most animals.
Be sure to look at some of the older quality rifles. Knight, T/C, Lyman, Traditions, CVA, just to name a few. Many of them are reduced in price and work just fine. Use rifles in good shape are often times a way to get a quality rifle at a reduced price.
But I am sure the Impact will serve you very well. The first thing I want you to learn about the magnum muzzleloader. Just because its a magnum does not mean you have to shoot magnum charges. Most of the claims of 150 grains of powder, while true is only hype to see a rifle. Most inlines tune in at 85-110 grains of powder. And that is all the power you need to harvest most animals.
Be sure to look at some of the older quality rifles. Knight, T/C, Lyman, Traditions, CVA, just to name a few. Many of them are reduced in price and work just fine. Use rifles in good shape are often times a way to get a quality rifle at a reduced price.