The Scoop
 

On the traditional muzzleloader forums I hear that anything other than a PRB is folly, and the mere mention of a sabot is forbidden. When it has been mentioned in a roundabout way one thing that is often sighted is how nasty the plastic is from the sabots.

So what is the scoop on plastic sabots and what's left behind? Is it such that it requires cleaning between each shot?

I intend on either purchasing a drop in .50 cal barrel for my Lyman's Deerstalker (percussion) or having one made as it would certainly be better to have a faster twist for a conical/saboted bullet barrel. My intentions is to attach a Malcolm style scope for hunting to 150-200 yds.

I like the BC's of Hornady's .430" 265 FTX and .451" 250 and 300 SST's. Pushed by 3F Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford seems like a good combination.

But I've also contemplated using .458" sabots for my Ruger Old Army bullets (.454-460"). I like simple and minimal. I'm not sure how well they'd work though, and I don't care much for an unknown BC value.

Ive shot sabots over 2700fps in my custom Savage 45. Modern sabot fouling is minimal even with the higher velocity and the higher ignition temps of smokeless powder. I can shoot hundreds of shots before any fouling is noticeable.

What would you expect from a traditional muzzleloader forum? They state upfront what they're all about.

The polymers used in modern sabots has and probably still is an ever growing process of change. The new sabots we use are not the sabots of old. The polymers used in their production have undergone an upgrading if you will, to make them even more rifle friendly. I have shot thousands of sabots through modern muzzleloaders. No harm to the rifle has been done. That's not to detract from the importance of a good solvent and brushing from time to time, just to make sure that no build up of anything is happening. But this solvent and brush cleaning is also aimed at copper, lead, and other impurities building in the barrel. As well as sabot residue, should it ever occur.

There is no cleaning between shots needed reference the sabot itself. When shooters clean between shots it is normally more aimed at powder fouling. As we know, when fired, a muzzleloader burn creates in many cases a fouling that can lead to further loading problems, or decrease in the accuracy of follow up shots, if this fouling is not at least minimized. The cleaning between shots insure that the degree of powder fouling remains somewhat constant. But it is not to remove any plastic that might have been left behind from the sabot.

rodwha

My experience is what has been already discussed in the responses written above...

True Muley, but they state that there is no reason for them. Some have even stated that it is unsportsmen like to use anything but a PRB, that even traditional conicals are terrible. You either need to learn the trajectory and windage or get closer.

I think it's a little closed minded.

But they've also opened the door to the usage of PRB. It's what I intend on using in my Deerstalker as I chose it as my first rifle since most hunting is done within 100 yds (I've shot no further than 80 yds so far), and I wanted a rifle i could walk around all weekend with. I saw a RB as worthless and didn't understand how it could work. It has no real sectional density and such poor BC. From my modern understandings it was as worthless as these guys see other projectiles.

I received some boolits for my Old Army that weren't resized. They are .459" and I'm unsure what to do with them. I could turn them backwards and try them as wadcutters as I've heard of some people doing with success. I could buy .458" sabots and try them in my rifle. Or I could hang on to them assuming I'll eventually get into casting.

Hearing so many others claim that the plastic sabots are bad about leaving residue in the rifling I wasn't sure, and I doubted so many would use them if they were so terrible, and so I figured I'd come to a modern muzzleloading forum for a clearer perception on their use.

Yes, I know. I can't fault them, because I feel the same way, and i'm sure I have many posts on the forum you're talking about. It's a different way of hunting, and you need to accept the limitations of hunting like they did in that era. The minute you try to improve it. You've lost sight of the goal.

Primitive hunting, or modern ML hunting. Make your choice, but be faithful to your choice.

I'm willing to try a PRB in my Deerstalker as that many accounts of a silly RB killing so efficiently and often achieving complete passthroughs on medium and even large game animals cannot be dismissed.

Within 100 yds I feel I could do fine with a RB, but it's beyond 100 yds that I would lose confidence. Not that I'm necessarily doubting the effectiveness of a RB with little energy, but the fact that that much windage with a minor 10 mph breeze is quite a bit, and I'm much better at judging within a margin of error for elevation than windage. And this is why I'd want a conical or saboted bullet for hunting beyond such.

I find all kinds of areas around me where I could hunt and not see beyond 75 yds through little clearings, or hunt across open areas or fields.

I haven't yet figured on what I'd want to use for hunting long range. I'd actually prefer a bore sized projectile, and the more aerodynamic profile of the REAL seems more to my liking. But I must admit that I like the modern aerodynamic designs offered nowadays.

I mostly asked about the plastic sabots as those on the traditional forums stated it left a horrible residue, and with these large boolits just sitting here I wondered. It seems silly to load them backwards in my revolver, and I don't know if I'll ever get around to casting.

LOL, I guess I'm a full fledged tramp cause I like em all.:arms:

I shoot RB a lot. I shoot full size conicals and I'm not adverse to shooting to shooting saboted bullets, centrefires and rimfires to boot.
Their site is for "Traditional" shooters so it isn't that they're close minded, just not open to the modern versions.

HA

Everytime I read your signature I think you're laughing.

Never underestimate the killing power of a roundball. Now I can not argue. There are better ballistic proficient projectiles out there that far outshine a roundball. But when I read these "experts" claim a roundball is not a killing projectile, or suited for only short range hunting, I just shake my head. I have shot and killed numerous deer with roundball. Every deer I ever shot at, I retrieved. That's not to say that some of them did not run off ... 30 even 50 yards after the hit. But I have had deer do the same after getting slammed with a 30-06. One deer ran over a mile after being hit by the roundball. But that was totally poor shot placement ( gut shot ) and the only thing inefficient was my aim.

I am all in favor of close range shooting with a roundball. But my longest shot to date with a muzzleloader.. 80-90 yards, was done with a roundball. And the strange part is, the deer was 80 yards out (as I recall). I was in a blind, took my time, and with 80 or 90 grains of Pyrodex RS placed that ball high in the kill zone behind the shoulder. This rifle was a .54 caliber and the ball was cast at home. The amazing part is this (as experts tell us) the inefficient and hardly lethal roundball, passed through the first deer and hit a second deer I had not seen, that was standing behind the first deer. That ball still had the power to hit the spine of the second deer, completely break the spine, and lodge under the skin on the other side of the spine. Both deer dropped in their tracks from the inefficient roundball.

Carry your roundball. It will do the job. The main thing as true with anything we shoot... shot placement. Put that ball in the right place, and you will kill the game.

Yeah and I don't see any rules other than people's opinions that they try to make truth saying that someone can't do whatever they want. If you want to shoot traditional guns and modern, do it. If you want to scope a flintlock, do it. I personally don't care what anyone shoots or hunts with as long as it is legal and they are enjoying it. This whole thing of people making the shooting/hunting standards for what other people should live by cracks me up.

I certainly understand a traditional forum keeping a traditional stance, but to say that even the use of a conical isn't really hunting isn't the way to go, and is closed minded.

One of the fellows there was complaining that the traditional ways were slowly dying out, and someone else stated that if they weren't so snotty about the absolute need to do things their way maybe some would be inclined to listen and eventually get involved.

In a way that was me. I wasn't interested in a PRB because I thought it was an absolute piece of garbage that couldn't be very effective. The more modern way of thinking seems to be that you need something somewhat heavy for size. But after reading post after post with pics of guys sitting next to a deer shot from 80 yds using a PRB convinced me that despite the feeble amount of energy a RB can do quite well, much better than one might think.

I am glad that we have people who keep the traditional ways alive, and that care enough about it to teach others. But I don't think it's a good think when you begin to bash anthers choice and tell them they are not hunters. There is enough division. As long as it's legal we should respect the others choice for what it is. JMO

I am now quite curious about a flintlock. I think I'll eventually have to get one. I like the history.

If it's the Traditional forum I'm thinking about, they clearly state that modern projectiles and inlines aren't discussed there...They won't even discuss cartridge guns...

Kinda like why we have Men's and Women's bathrooms... :)

Not sure the reason for your posting but to think that you can shoot any projectile out of any muzzle loader just doesn't fly...The depth of rifling and rate of twist has much to do with what can be shot accurately out of a muzzleloader...

Round balls are very efficient killers, remember from the 1600's to 1860s that is what was mainly in use, same with a flintlock...

There is an art to hunting and being successful with flintlocks...It is much easier to kill deer with an inline and a scope...Might want to learn about inlines over here and flintlocks over there... ;)

It's really simple. If you don't buy into the traditional way. Don't join the forum.

I'm also a member of a bamboo fly rod forum. Go there and talk about graphite rods, and see the results.

Some guys get carried away sometimes, but saying traditional is being an elitist. Sort of makes you an elitist for modern ML. Most guys don't try to push their way on you unless you try and push your way on them.

Talking about sabots on a traditional forum is just asking for some flak.

Knowing that it's a traditional forum I haven't mentioned things such as that. I've noticed that others have and seemed to get misinformation, which is why I came here.

Those who mentioned modern things such as sabots deserved to be chastised there. I don't fault the traditional guys from putting him/them in their place when it comes to the use of sabots.

I don't agree with the attitude towards using conicals though. Maybe Minies weren't used much for hunting unless you count men. But they are traditional projectiles. So are PP bullets. Not really used for hunting from what I understand, but certainly PC.

Anyway, the point was to ask about the fouling left from plastic sabots.

My Deerstalker has a 1:48" twist, but deep grooves (~.520"). I'm not sure how 230 grn .459" bullets would work. I'd like to think that a mid range twist ought to do fairly well with a mid length bullet. But my sense of logic has certainly let me down before.

I'm just unsure of what to do with these otherwise useless bullets.

Most of the guys are into pre 1830. No conicals at that point.

Maxi-balls will shoot good in your gun.

Powerbelts work great in my Lyman deer stalker 54 cal I keep the loads under 80 gr. I get very good accuracy.

I peruse the traditional forums from time to time because I find a lot of helpfull info there. Although I own several, I personally don't care to use in-line rifles as I get more enjoyment from shooting and hunting with sidelocks and PRB or solid conicals myself. That being said, I don't care who uses inlines or sabots. The folks on the "other" forum may seem closed minded to some, but they're just trying to stay with traditional style fireams and methods.

BPS

Lord only knows how many saboted bullets I have shot through my in line CVA. I have never had one iota of an issue with "plastic" residue. The powder residue shows up first as far as I can tell .... typically 3-4 shots and the fouling becomes restrictive. I do not recall ever seeing any evidence of the sabot's plastic being stripped off by the lands or otherwise ending up as a part of a fouled rifle barrel.

I am certain most "traditional" shooters would roll their eyes at my Savage 10ML .... and smokeless ! You talk about a long range shooting son of a gun! This gun is !

Now as for my old Lyman "Plainsman"? Still my favorite.

It's one thing to want to keep a tradition alive, but it's another to say those who don't use PRB aren't really hunters.

I'm all for keeping the tradition alive, and like you, I prefer the looks of side lock. An inline is too much like a modern rifle, and just doesn't hold my fancy. But I wouldn't down you for using it.

And not all of those guys are like that. There are just a few. Most will politely tell the new guy that "those" or "that" isn't discussed here.

It's passion for what you love. It's no different than me telling you your football team sucks!

At least they're doing it on their forum.

The nice thing about Internet forums is they don't cost you anything. So if you don't like the environment you can leave without loss of a cent.

I visit The Muzzleloading Forum now and then. It's not totally my thing (I like it here better). But there's an interesting read there now and then. As for the opinions of some of their members - well, it's their opinion, isn't it. And they have a right to them even if I consider them narrow minded.

Heck, Muley holds the opinion that I shouldn't have modern scopes on my sidelocks. He's wrong of course. But I love him anyway. :s2:

Is that what you call that?

Which that is the that that you are referring to? :p

(Or in proper English, which "that" is the "that" to which you are referring?)

No, you are! :p

I have an old CVA that I've used since 2005. I've shot many hundreds of plastic-saboted rounds through it. I've only every cleaned the barrel with water and windex. No plastic residue/buildup at all, and the rifle shoots much better now than when I bought it....

As a black powder person I think it is important to know a little about all types of black powder guns. If you buy a lot of them it good to know that a 1in 48 will like round ball and a 1 in 28 will like a sabot. The best advise is to know what kind of gun you have then log on to the fourm that can best assist you. Good luck