A Knight Time headache
 

Normally my Knight Disc rifle with the Lehigh Conversion is just a pleasure to shoot. Boy!! not today. I regret loosing my temper today. There was a country working installing a snowmobile trail sign out on the road when the rifle made me upset. And what I was calling that rifle, and the tone and volume I was using... I sure hope now he didn't think I was talking to him. Although he did hurry putting that sign up and left.



How could such a pretty rifle make me so angry you ask? Well I swabbed the oil out of the breech and barrel like normal. I was shooting 100 grains of BlackHorn 209, a 260 gr Harvester Scorpion PT with a MMP HPH-24 sabot, and Remington STS for starters. I'd popped two primers in the rifle to get it toned, and then loaded it up.

Shot the first round. All sounded fine. Like normal. Went to get the primer out.. and it would not come out. I shook and wiggled that rifle. No go, that primer was in there. I noticed it had backed out of the breech plug but for some reason the ejector was holding on to that primer like it was the winning lottery ticket.

So back in the house for the C tool and allen wrench to take the bolt out. Get the bolt out, and the C tool falls out. Then the bolt spring snaps closed and locked. Got the Lehigh adapter off the bolt and still had to pry that Remington Primer off the face of the bolt. Busted a thumb nail trying to pry it off. Then had to hold the C tool in my mouth, and spread that knob and bolt apart. Got it in the bolt and reset the C tool. And then for some reason the bolt would not go back in the rifle. No matter what I done. This is where the real blasphemer started. I bet that country worker was getting nervous at this point.

By now I was trying to calm down asking for one good reason why I should keep this rifle and this adapter kit. I figured a 100 yard walk and back to the target might give me time to relax. Just one reason was all I wanted!!



OK.. I felt a little better. I mean things do happen. Right?

Cleaned the bolt, springs, adaptor, every thing real good. Finally got it back together after resetting the C tool twice, and got the bolt in the rifle. Loaded the rifle, fired... PLOOP!! Misfire! @-/*%^ and another stuck primer. This was about all I could take!!

Debating whether to wrap that rifle around a tree or not, I took it all apart again, and checked it. Every thing looked good. Everything was clean.

So I disassembled the bolt and got the primer out. Being very careful with the C tool this time. Back together and Shot #3 sounded normal.



Loaded again, shot #4 sounded OK but again, STUCK PRIMER!! I was about fit to be tied.

I debated just putting the rifle away, but instead took the bolt out, removed the primer, and then changed primers. I put the Remington STS primers away and got some CCI 209 primers out from the house.

I then loaded and shot four more rounds.



#8 was again, a stuck primer with the CCI. I'd had enough!! I decided to clean the rifle out there, and enjoy the beautiful weather, and then put that rifle back in the rack.

5-8 might have been a stringer because of the heat, or the load.. I was firing without letting the barrel cool. I was the one that needed to cool down, not the rifle. Also I wanted to push that rifle and see if I could make the primer fail again. Which I finally did.

While the group was pretty good for 100 yards... this is not a rifle I would hunt with until I was sure that the Lehigh adapter would not jam on me like it did. When I did the final cleaning, I really scrubbed everything good and clean. Maybe in a week or two, I will bring the rifle back out and see if it does all of this again.

If not, send it to me and I will send you a more reliable gun. I hate to see you upset.:biggrin::biggrin:

We all have those kinds of days. Really not a bad 8 shot group at all for you being a little hot.
One time I was trying to load some hogs in a trailer by myself and it just didn't go too well atall. Finally the neighbors came over to see what was wrong at our place. They live over half a mile away. :s1::s1::s1:

I have never had a primer stick in that rifle before. And today it was just one thing after another... The rifle is a good shooter, without doubt. But these kind of frustration days, I can do without. That is a real kind offer there SS.

flounder, I used to haul livestock for a living. Hogs and young calves can be the worst things to load. I was known for talking to them once in a while too. Plus I once had an over 550 pound boar chase me through a stockyard runway one night. He wanted to eat me. I could have won an Olympic high fence clearing contest that day. The things I was screaming that night... just glad my mother never heard me talk like that.

The Winchester W209 primer seem not to stick in my Knight better than others.

Quite a mystery Cayugad. Why did it behave like that if it never did so before?

Could there be a burr in there somewhere? Is there any chance you were using Winchester or Remington primers in previous sessions?

When I shot the Winchester primers I had misfires all the time. I was told they were not strong enough and that was my problem. So I purchased Remington STS and CCI 209 primers. I was shooting the CCI but wanted to try the Remington today. Well they are not going to be used.

I checked for a burr Semisane and could find nothing. No reason why that thing should grab a primer and not let it go.

Cayugad

Funny you should mention this.. the last time I shot the U-Mag the primer were sticking something fierce. It was miserable to shoot... Even shooting just the bare primer resulted in a stuck primer. Finally i gave up - pulled the hammer assembly and the breech plug. I ended up flushing it with windex. Cleaning it with a Q tip - the primer pocket that it is and put it back in the gun. Everything then worked just fine...

My speculation... after sitting for almost a year in the safe the BP, the flash channel and the flash hole were plugged with really old oil.. almost like it had thickened and harden in there. I am betting if i poured water down the barrel it would not have made it through the BP...

Like I said though after I cleaned it at the rock pit and reinstalled it - it was like new again...

Some days!!!!????

you should have got rid of that u-mag right then and there and be done with it. Now you will always have to wonder if it will do that again :biggrin:

Gee Chet, don't you have one of them? :wave:

Welllll - i actually thought about it and you at the time... You are lucky i could not find your address, but it would come with the camo stock and the original grey laminate and other accessories.



And the really pretty one...



Underclocked really does not like this one...

but not right now... i put a number 11 bp in it and i want to shoot it more....

Well, for all the difficulty the gun is very accurate. The vertical stringing was probably caused by the primer.

Don't you know all you get with a muzzleloader is one shot?

My LRH tends to stick primers (Pretty much all brands), but never hard enough that they bolt won't pull them out.

Isn't that an original Knight Disc???

If so, why mess with perfection??? :)

Go back to the original discs and real black powder or Pyrodex.... :)

Yes that is an original Knight Disc. And with the orange jackets it shot beautiful. Sabotloader was kind enough to help set this rifle up for the Lehigh, and then he got to play with it a little. And it never acted up, until today. Other then when it was having a misfire problem with Winchester W209 and Blackhorn. And the rifle is a great shooter without argument.

I have a couple of lehigh conversion plugs and so far using federal primers I have never had that happen. My factory mountaineer bare primer plug does that sometimes and I have to fire the spent primer and then it falls right out.
Hope it straightens out for you . It sure would be frustrating.

So if it jams, you fire it again as if it were live and that helps it fall out? I never tried that. But I sure will. Thanks!!

Maybe you will have better luck today shooting. Some days just dont go as planned.

Correct. This happens frequently. The discharge pushes part of the primer back into the firing pin hole and wont allow the primer to fall out. A quick dry fire and the pin pushes the primer back out and your problem is solved.

My primer is sticking in the primer pocket of the breech plug, not allowing the bolt to be pulled back/opened. Not sure we are talking about the same thing

No, two different issues. I had your issue with Remington STS's. These are the fatest primers. Ive never had this issue with any others.

Is there any chance the vent liner has eroded to the point that you are experiencing an unusual amount of back pressure?

There are two distinct problems that can occur with the Knight on occasions.

1. the primer backs out of the battery cup and sticks in the nose of the bolt. Oddly enough the primer in a shotgun primer measures .209" - the whole in the face of the bolt of a Knight is .176/.177" and with pressure and heat - especially heat. At times the primer will be heated and pushed out of the batter cup and back into the face of the bolt. Snapping the trigger will push the primer back into the battery cup and then it will fall out of the breech when tipped.

2. The primer, actually, the battery cup expands so much it sticks itself in or on the walls of the primer pocket of the breech plug. This one I hate - when it happens. It is sort of like a shell sticking in the chamber of a CF rifle. Usually because of a dirty chamber or shell. Since CF cases are mostly brass we do not see this problem as often because bras expands to the size of the chamber and then quickly cools and contracts and reduces in size so it can be easily extracted... Shot gun primers or battery cups made of aluminum - not so much!

I have found most often but not always - when the primer pocket gets dirty or sticky the aluminum sticks very well to the walls - especially right at the top of the pocket where the aliminum or even a brass battery pocket can grab the inside lip of edge of the pocket.

So out comes the JB's and I end up trying to clean and smooth out the walls of the primer pocket...

AND THEN... as Josmund suggests... Is there any chance the vent liner has eroded to the point that you are experiencing an unusual amount of back pressure? there is always this problem especially with heavier bullets and charges.

If I remember right, the Winchester 209 primers are the least or lowest on the power scale for 209 primers. This is why I had problems with my Knight Vision and BH209 powder. I had to go to a strong (hotter) power 209 with a Federal mag and the CCI mag primers.

Wanting to discover the puzzle of the Knight Disc with the Nikon Scope, and remembering what 1874 sharpshooter told me, we grabbed some BlackHorn 209, Remington primers, 300 grain SSTs, 300 grain Speer Deep Curls, EZ load sabots, MMP 12 sabots, and some Harvester Crushed Rib sabots and out to the range.

The range finder said 50, and 51 yards at first. I wanted to check the rifle and get a boost of confidence before moving back to the 100 yards station.

I want to note 1874 Sharpshooter saved me grief. I tried that popping on a spent primer a second time, and then the Remington primers came right out of the rifle!!! Happy Days.

Since all you maniacs shoot 110 grains or more of BlackHorn 209 I figured what the heck!! I loaded up a 300 grain SST in a sabot, and 110 grains of BlackHorn 209. I fired and knew that I had shot off a rifle. :woot: And since I was told my swabbing was bad, I did not swab and shot two more.



Shot one was on a clean barrel, but the next two were fine. What concerned me was how high they were hitting. But I "guessed" that they would come down, back at 100 yards.

So I marched the target back through the woods. Man it was hot. 85 degrees and humid. I got the target back there and walked out. I discovered my little hike had given the rifle barrel time to cool. Because with just three shots.. it had gotten hot.

I then fired two shots. Unfortunately the photo don't show them. They were even higher, up at the edge of the target and the range finder said 102 yards. Now I was upset. Before it shot so well at 100 yards. So I marched back and adjusted the scope down.

ADJ was the first adjustment. Then I fired three more. Not a bad group, but I needed to adjust, and come up. It was then I realized the sabots I were grabbing were a horse from different towns. Some were crushed ribs, some EZ load and some I had no idea what they were.

I then had made my adjustment and shot three shots. One was in the bull and the other two on each side of the rifle. I also noticed that when loading, there really seemed to be fouling build up. AND I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE TO SWAB. But I got some alcohol and applied just a little but to a patch and swabbed the bore. When I swabbed between shots, it shot three just above the bull and touched. I then did not swab, but the barrel was pretty clean still and it put two in the bull.

So.. more questions. Have any of you tried to swab with alcohol and if you did, did it make a difference in accuracy of the rifle? Also do others have to shoot a dead primer to make it come out, other then Sharpshooter? By the way, SS thanks for that heads up.

After shooting the three SST 300 grains with 110 grains of powder, and the ones when I adjusted the scope, I have to admit, those in the center at 100 yards were shot with 90 grains of BlackHorn 209. I backed down on the charge and went to what my notes said was accurate. That 110 grains was really punishing me. And I saw no reason to take it.

Do you think its the old 24 inch barrel my rifle has that makes it like less powder? I mean I have no doubt of the 90 grains and a 300 grain .454 Deep Curl as a hunting load. And it is accurate.

Nice shooting Dave. As you know the 90 grains will do anything you need it to do. Why punish yourself by shooting more unless a person would need to for accuracy? For sure with your rifle you don't need to, not with that 300 grain SST anyway.

I really wanted to see if I was missing out on some "extra accuracy." All I noted was after about five or six shots, my shoulder was not liking it. Backing down just that 20 grains, made all the difference in the world. I have to agree with you. 90 grains of that and a 300 grain Deep Curl would sure play the devil on a white tail.

That is some good shooting. I'm glad the primer issue is solved, or at least seems to be. I only shoot 110 to 130 gr with a 250 gr bullet . I don't shoot that with a 300 gr . Although with my GPH I have to shoot 110 with 425 conical for accuracy,
Even with 90 you should be able to turn that into a 200 + yard gun
The 45 should get a chance next , right? I'm looking forward to seeing what it does , especially with the dead center 260 gr.
Great shooting

In fact, it got to where I would shoot, then automatically re-cock and fire it, then the Remington primer seemed to come right out. Have you ever tried swabbing when shooting BlackHorn 209? I want to do more testing but I have an itch that it might actually help. Time will tell.

I haven't tried swabbing with Blackhorn. But I might try just to see. I hope to get out this weekend and do some shooting . I need a break from antelope hunting :happy0157: I snuck within 76 yards of a nice buck for the second time but couldn't close the deal. Snuck within 25 yards of a doe but didn't want to kill her in front of her fawn.
I guess I'm getting soft. ;)So a range session with the 45 would be a good break from the bow .

If you're getting soft. So, am I. I wouldn't have shot either.

I have gotten to where I hate shooting does. Even if I can use the meat. I guess I figure I am not going to starve, and letting them go only increased our tiny population of deer.

That is flat open country right? Must be hard to put the sneak on a antelope.

Yeah it's flat open country where the antelope hang out. Come rifle season it will get difficult to get within a couple hundred yards, right now it's a little easier, but i still haven't been able to get within Bow range. Most people set up a blind near water and wait. I prefer spot and stalk . Belly crawling sure gets harder each year . I had to resort to buying knee pads this year. I guess I got to face the fact that I'm wearing down. A 40 pound pack anymore just about does me in. Not sure how I'm going to handle Mt Lion season this year and that's what I wait for more than all other seasons combined. Such is life
For antelope hunting I use desert camo pants and just a tan long sleeve t shirt to blend in with prairie grass and stubble fields. I made a face mask with a white throat patch like an antelope and I use an antelope head decoy as a hat . Looks funky but gets me fairly close

What i wonder is if you could take one of your goat with, and be able to walk right up to pronghorn wearing that get up?.?.

I just saw something the other day where a guy had a tan goat with white on it's neck and dark colored ears hanging down that kind of mimicked the brown sideburns. He took it antelope hunting with him, but I can't remember how it turned out.

One of them 3-D bow targets could be painted also. And they are light and easy to carry. The ears were kicked off of mine by a Doe that wanted to commit suicide, So I had to prop them up with wooden skewers. And you can take the horns off. That would make a good decoy.

I have used it on whitetail as a decoy and strange as it sounds, it works. One year I put Tinks #9 Doe in Heat Buck Lure on a White handkerchief and then pinned that to where the tail is. I had a real small three pointer come right up to the decoy. He looked nervous, but that might have been because it would be his first love... ;)