Elk Hunting BP rifle recommendations
 

I'm new to hunting with a BP rifle, but not new to hunting or BP shooting. Been doing some reading lately and there seems to be a wealth of data on muzzleloaders anymore. So instead of enduring additional info overload, I figured I'd get some opinions here.

With all the different bullets & accessories for them, different length twists and calibers floating around I am quite confused as to what I could possibly need. I want to put together a percussion kit that I will be able to put an elk down at up to 150 yds and maybe even 200 yds if possible. I also want to pour my own lead. Don't know if lead is going to be sufficient at 150+ distances or what caliber/twist/bullet combo will even throw it fast enough. Also here in MT we have no limitations on the use of BP equipment. And I'm not interested in any inlines either.

So what's gonna get the job done ? There's entirely too many options/combinations out there producing different results for me to consider a purchase at this point. Hopefully you guys can help me clarify the info overload I got going on.

200 yard shots on elk IMO would be better suited for an inline. A 54cal traditional sidelock with patched ball, fine for 150 yards.

If your wanting a traditional style rifle that can kill elk out to 200 yards, that is a challenge. Since your talking traditional I am sure your not talking scope. So that means a very good sight on the rifle. Next you want to throw lead.

Let me point out, long range shooting with open sights is not impossible, but it takes gun skills, good techniques, practice, and finding the right load for the rifle you shoot. Also it takes good eyes. But I am sure you would not be attempting this if you did not have the shooting skills to pull it off. I shoot a lot, but with open sights.. that's too far for me. Even with one of my lead throwing rifles. My eyes just would not permit that.

Are you going to build this rifle or buy it off the rack? While there are some excellent made commercially produced rifles out there, if it were me.. I would be looking for a 50 caliber that could handle big lead conical bullets. Bullets in the 425-500 grain range. Now a large pure lead conical bullet can and will get the job done at 200 yards or less. But to be realistic, that is some long shooting.

If you were looking at an inline rifle I would tell you find an 50 caliber White Model 97, 98, or Super 91 in .504 caliber. And then cast some 460 or larger conical bullets and work up a load with 100 grains of powder. I would feel with a good peep sight, and a lot of practice, that would be a 200 yard elk rifle.

Now a while back, Green Mountain Barrel Company did sell a 50 caliber barrel with a 1-24 twist and a traditional tube style scope I think made by Leatherwood that fit on a T/C Hawkins stock. With that barrel bedded, that would be a 200 yard rifle. Granted, once you found the right conical bullet to shoot. Green Mountain Barrel Company also made some 1-28 twist barrels that shot conical bullets very well. Many of the members purchased them. I own two of them. But I have shot conicals out of them and again.. I am not a long range shooter but they do shoot conical bullets well.

If you were to try and get closer to the elk, say 125 yards or less.. then a 54 caliber roundball or 58 caliber roundball would do the job. Even a 50 would probably, but I would always go bigger to be on the side of caution. These rifles are out there. Lyman makes a fine roundball shooter. Called the Great Plains Rifle. They also make a conical shooter (I own one) called the Great Plains Hunter. It does shoot conical bullets and sabots well. Maybe not to 200 yards in my hands but in a skilled set of hands and good eyes, that all might be possible.

My Great Plains Hunter does shoot powerbelts very well. And I do mean very well. But really, all a powerbelt is to me is an over grown roundball. But a 405 grain powerbelt out of that rifle might get the job done. I never shot any conical that heavy out of mine. So I can not comment on how well it might do. But I have shot a few Hornady Great Plains conicals and it did very well with them out to 50 yards.

So because of the distance you want to shoot. The fact you want to shoot lead. My recommendations would be the White Rifle if you went inline. Traditional style I would look at a Great Plains Hunter in 50 caliber and start testing conical bullets, or the Green Mountain Barrel with the 1-24 conical barrel.

If you want to get closer and still shoot lead... the Great Plains Rifle in .54 caliber or a Green Mountain barrel in 54 or 58 caliber.

And there's that info overload thing again :p.

This rifle I will build. Not interested in buying anything off the rack....... and 200 yds is not a must, but 150 is ! Open sights it will not be. Traditional tube style scope for sure I'm thinking. My eyes and skills are pretty good but at 150 yds it gets to be a partial guessing game to some degree for me. I'm not completely comfortable with open sites at looooong range.....

Let me throw this out there too before going too much farther.... I'm not he!! bent on lead only either ! If there are other bullet option to be used in a traditional rifle, I am here to discuss just that.

I have 4 traditional rifles that I wouldn't be afraid of using at 200 yards on elk.
A 451 English sporting rifle 1:20 twist with a Soule sight, a hawken 50 cal 1:24 twist with a 6x Malcolm tube scope , my GPH 54 cal with 1:32 twist and a 451 Gibbs with a 1:18 twist with a creedmore sight. Anything along those lines will serve you well for what you want to do . Heavy lead to sabots adds lots of options. I will leave it at that so as not to get into info overload for you

Too lat for info overload....... knee deep in it already but working through it :cool2:.

What are you slinging out of each of those ? Can't imagine you're using the same bullet in all of them ?! This is what I'm trying to get a grip on I guess. All the different twists and what goes best out of them and maximizing it all for power and distance.

GPH I shoot a 425 gr conical and a saboted 325 gr Barnes mz
50 cal Hawken shoot a 495 gr conical and saboted bullets in the 300 gr weight range.
English sporting rifle 460 gr conical
Gibbs 538 gr paper patched conical.

I have also found the 40/45 dead center sabots to shoot well in the 451

I would probably build a 50 cal hawkins:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/346...l-in-the-white

Here is a link with several other selection choices:

http://possibleshop.com/rifle-kit.html

Either 1:48 or 1:28 would do OK, you can use the big lead conicals (like no excuses, maxiballs, great plains hunt, etc) or I have good luck with Hornady 350 gr FPBs. I have killed two elk with them.

MountainDevil54, You give info like your an old pro. How many elk have you killed? Ron

Well MD is not to far off, I have taken one at 180 with a Hawken 54 caliber But it had a 35.5 inch barrel I was using 130 grains of 2F and a patch RB. This was one I built myself.
My rifle was made with the intention of using it at Friendship and had an extra notch in the open iron sight and had shot 17 inch sting measure groups at Friendship so I knew what it could do.
Beyond that distance a PRB not only drops very fast but has lost a lot of energy.
The main problem with setting up to shoot accurately at long distance with a lead bullet is the slow speed and rainbow trajectory so you need an exact distance and once you get very far out that means you must range find the animal with a laser range finder capable of the distance the wind can also play a big part in how far it is practical to shoot.
If you feel you must go with a big lead bullet a White rifle and a mid weight bullet say around 400grains is what I would suggest, also plan on many hours at the range and a sight that is capable of the range you wish to shoot, a heavy bullet will start slow and have a rainbow trajectory but will keep enough energy for a proper hit at long range.

see, had I said to go wit ha 54 and you'd be okay with 200 yard shots, the others would jump on me with the cryin :D I know doc white said 175 for 54cal patched ball is fine for big game, but you know how it goes. Accusations start

PRB's lose energy so fast that they are not what I would consider to be useful past 75 yards for a 54 cal for elk. I will say it out loud here, 175 yards or more with a PRB is in my opinion unethical.
I know guys have pushed the limit, and maybe took a desperate shot at an animal and it came through. That does not make it the right thing to do. I have seen elk limping around after being shot with a PRB. I have seen elk that were wounded and not retrieved. We had a late cow hunt that a lot of newbys would go get a off the rack gun buy some PRB's and head out.

I have asked you several times MD about your experience with killing elk. You have given statements from others. How many elk have you killed besides the young cow? I have no use for People that give recommendations with no real knowledge of the subject. I have killed 14 elk with bows Muzzleloaders and rifles. I have helped with the killing of at least 20 more elk. I have never lost one but I have had some tough times. You guys that are shooting that range with a PRB need to think about what your doing giving those kind of recommendations. Ron

A 9/16" hole or somewhere around there won't kill?

watch the hunting channel, you'll see 20 yard gut shots from the bow hunters and 100 yard gun shots with snazzy centerfires.

Giving someone load advice is one thing, telling them how to shoot is another. You can't hold that persons hand or guide the bullet to the animal, thats going to take skill on their part and no bullet of any kind or from any rifle will make up for a piss poor shot.

Not right away in all cases at all bullet energies

Which makes the point why I think you should err on the side of caution when selecting bullets and energy left when deciding to take a shot.

Jon, on the one elk you killed, if it had been a 350 class bull, would you have taken the shot at 180 yards with a round ball? If so, you are a braver man than I.

If it had been a 350 class bull he would have probably been standing in a puddle , shaking so much he couldn't shoot at all. ;):D

You would have found me passed out with the gun cocked and a lump in my pants :eek:

Muley, why did you delete your post, I didn't have time to answer your question.

Truthfully? It was a backup for Jon, but after he ragged on himself. I didn't see the point.

Me too. I get excited when I see a doe even. Besides the only 350 class bull I ever saw was 2 dimensional. :biggrin: