The average Joe
 

Most of us who spend a lot of time on the blackpowder forums are the ones who usually like to experiment and find the best and most accurate load for our guns. But not everybody does that. I have talked to everyone i could find in my little area and it seems that the majority of muzzleloader shooters buy a gun, take whatever powder or bullets someone suggests. Sight it in and that is the end of it.
So I got to thinking what kind of accuracy can we get doing something like that. No variables , no experimenting. Just normal off the shelf bullets and powder and a couple suggestions.
Here's how my experiment went.:
I was arranging the Whites and Knights in the gun safe so I decided to take a Old Knight 50 cal Elite that i hadnt shot in 3 years.
Since pellets seem to be the way to go for most I took triple 7 pellets,I decided on 100 gr ( 2 pellets) The local store has mostly powerbelts, and shockwaves . I chose the 250 gr shockwave. and triple 7 primer.
The elite is scoped with a leopould ultimate slam .
I headed out with that combo and set up at 50 yards for the first shot. wasnt sure where it would hit but knew it was sighted in at 100 3 years ago when I last saw it.
here was the first shot, off the 4 wheeler seat as a rest.


needless to say I was very happy.

here was 2 shots from 50 yards . Standard 2 pellets 777 and 250 shockwave



now I was excited

so i figure I will go to 100 yards and try that.
heres the first shot


Now the real test, a group.



that looks like 2 shots but it is 3 shots at 100 yards .

So i come to the conclusion that the average Joe could , for hunting purposes, pick up a good used Knight , grab some common accessories, a box of pellets and shockwaves and head out to get a deer
Not a big investment yet more than sufficient.
the down side :
well the 777 left quite a buildup in breechplug



and the blowback was obviously there


but cleanup was quick and easy.

So a person doesnt have to settle for a cheap import to enter the world of muzleloading
There are other options, such as a good used Knight , easily obtained , some basic accessories, get it sighted in and you are good to go.
Now me, well I prefer to do things differently, but most people I talked to here in my area just aren't into blackpowder like I am.
This experiment was for them. :D
and for little red riding hood.:biggrin:

1874sharpsshooter

This is a 5 shot group from a Knight DISC @ 200 yards... It did pretty good also. Yes it was off a bench and bags.

Really wish i could say that I was the shooter, but I were not



250 grain Bloodlines - MMP HpH-24 - BH-209

todays muzzleloaders offer better options without the mess.

Still good shooting and most importantly, fun.

And the average joe would then take that gun and let it sit in the corner until next hunting season and then find it all rusted up.

Well a lot of off the shelf rifles have "moderate range hunting accuracy." Its when people such as many of you try to squeeze that little extra accuracy out of them at some extreme and IMO even insane distances, that the real shooters start to surface.

Personally I seldom shoot past 100 yards. I have shot further, but really see no need to and don't have a lot of that facility at my personal range. So I attempt to squeeze accuracy at moderate ranges that I would hunt at.

Come on a little further west to the great wide opens plains and you will suddenly "find the need to":biggrin::biggrin:
especially for antelope or even some of the mulies.

nice shooting for sure Chet. The average joes around here have never heard of a disc elite but they do know what the pellets are.

1874 - Yes I believe the average guy could harvest a deer with just what you bought. However I do believe that you may have just got lucky with that combo. You and I and a lot of the other guys in here know how MLs vary even those of the same make and model with their load preference.
Now granted, inlines are a bit more forgiving than traditional rifles. Some of these can be bears to figure out. But to me that is the fun of shooting them.
Thank goodness I've learned to keep a load log for each of my sidelocks or I'd be one confused (even more so than usual) guy.

1874sharpsshooter

I would bet you a dime to a dollar that you could load any reasonable projectile and charge into that DISC Elite and it would shoot a very repsectable hunting group all day long.

Actually I would bet that with any rifle you have... but when you were to go to a sidelock shooting round balls - all bets are off.

Even then with my 1-48 Renegades as long as I remain reasonable the Renegades will shoot them just fine.

I think you are right . After broncos post I decided to try the same thing with some different guns. Same load and bullet
The Triumph, omega, Mountaineer. All three shot minute of deer with the biggest group being about 2 1/2 inches however I prefer MOA or better if possible:biggrin:
The 1:48 twist is the one barrel that I personally don't like. I changed out to either a fast or slow twist on everything I had that came with a 1:48 twist. I realize some like the compromise twist for shooting either RB or conicals. Not me. Give me either fast or slow but not in between.

I never saw much difference between a 1-48 and 1-60 for a PRB.

Keep in mind the original Hawkens were 1-48, and they shot PRB's.

settle for both, awesome performance and speed = Thor

I think a good quality rifle has a lot to do with it. That, and inlines nowadays are generally very well made and shoot a lot of combinations well. The 3 inlines I have (2 CVA's and a Knight) all shot minute of deer at 100 yards out of the box. However, one of the CVA's took quite a bit of load development to get it down to 1.5 MOA which I prefer when hunting. I'm still working on the Knight to find some consistent 1 - 1.5 MOA loads, though it shoots 2.5 MOA with almost any load.

Amen Bronko!
There's no way I could ever remember the load data for all of my 19 ML's if I didn't have it documented!!!

BPS

Me either. I use 5.5 x 11" targets with the load data noted and keep them in a file for each gun.

Sharpshooter


This statement is posted on another sight... I think it is pretty typical of the a lot of the "average Joe's" thought process and probably a valid thought until the disease bites...

That statement is obviously taken from the midst of a CVA bashing festival. Now why would a Knight man stoop to such things? ;)

Average Joe would be well advised to look at the top end of CVA's product line. He'll not likely find either those or a Knight Mountaineer in Wal-Mart. That isn't meant to suggest the Knight is on even par with an Apex or even an Accura. ;)

One of these days, Alice!

Any chance to bash brand they will take it. Knight tried an entry level also and it flopped big time. T/C has an entry level as well.
People have to realize that although muzzleloading is a passion for many of us it is just a gun for a short season for many. I sometimes get the idea that people are more than just a little elitist about the sport and that type of attitude I could do without. Everybody is not passionate about the same things in this world and that is a good thing.

I take a little bit of an exception to this as the TC's and Whites that I have are quality guns, so while I shoot Knight I also purchase and shoot others... I will admit that I do vastly prefer bolts over breaks and I do even prefer plunger guns versu break opens

Actually this individual is trying to buy a Knight but the price of the gun is the hold up other than he has found a a new Wolverine that he can get for a little more than the least expensive CVA/Traditions.

But the point being the price of the rifle is one of the most looked at reason that rifles are sold. And the marketing folks for CVA/Traditions know this and produce a rifle just for this market. Somebody has to fill the market needs. This individual is really very typical of the majority of the ML shooters in the West. What can I get cheap that will do the job for 9 days a year. And if you are looking for a cheap rifle CVA and Traditions fit the bill. Not to say that the rifle will not do the job for those folks for those few days.

You are correct... the 'average joe' should look at the other end of the CVA/Traditions line - but then he would not be the 'average joe' correct?

i better not say anything about one of my members knight disc not being able to shoot BH209.

Why? several Knights can not shoot BH well without modification. On the other hand the new ones can even if you are using a plunger gun... I would not advise it but several do.

Any DISC can shoot BH very well if you are willing to get the correct breech plug - even the original DISC will shoot BH with the Orange FPJ - a bit dirty but it will shoot.

apparently thats not true because his isn't firing.

Hey MD... I will make you a deal... If I can not get that DISC, and I am talking a Knight DISC, to Shoot BH and shoot it effectivley - and again it may require him to make a change in his routine, but if I fail - I will never say another word about a Knight again on this forum.

But, if I can get it to shoot BH every time and effectively you can never say anything about a CVA on this forum again!

How 'bout that for a deal...

No matter, what you might do as an administrator is send him someplace he can get help...

I would love to know the details...

waiting on the fellow to get back to me on what primers we was using. He did say the blow back was filthy and the shot that did go off, was a big delay. Always took it under the impress from you guys that these knights could shoot bh209 right out of the box

Most of them can, unless he might be using a Revolution plug or has never done any plug maintenance... All he really needs is a W209 - this hot primer stuff really does not apply to a DISC even if it were a Red FPJ and the plug is clean, also he needs to use a new FPJ's. Reused or old used streched FPJ's can/will cause hang fires or no fires. And then of course a NFPJ is the better way to go.

Still think I offered you a good deal...

yeah you and the other knight goons would run all the forums then ;) I see you are even posting wakeman links on other sites, talk about a downward dive in class

There is nothing wrong with Wakeman if you realized that he is a very biased writer. I even said that in the post. Not much different than reading a lot of your stuff.

And of course I fit in there also with Whites, TC's, and Knights.

Even at one time I battled RW with a the CVA thing myslef - when I had CVA's myself. But at that time I had CVA's because I was the 'average joe' and Wal-Mart put them out there at give away prices.

I think I even had a Traditions at one time for awhile. I know I had an original CVA side lock at one time also... But tht was when CVA was CVA not BPA.

Knight has an entry level gun. They just need to lower the price to where it belongs. :p

You might be right (about entry level) and you are dertainly entiltled to your own thoughts... the current Vision & Wolverine are $290...

And this is my opinion ONLY - they are both quality guns with Green Mountain barrels. They may not be in the Apex class but certainly I would consider one of them before a Wolf, but again that is just me.

And I as I said before a Jeep is way overpriced for what you get also, but you bought one and put how much more money in it??? I remember you posted it once but I forgot the value.

Besides Muley you have one goal in life - start and maintain discussions that do not go your way.

you'd be surprised at what the wolf can do. I had a knight lk93, you can keep that exposed ignition and filth

I can buy two Wolfs for that price, and it shoots MOA. What a bargain!

It's almost as light as your $900 wonder too.

I have said this before but just for you what doesn't shoot MOA anymore and that should not be the way you value a rifle.

It's one thing you should look at for a hunting rifle. If the gun also has a good price, is dependable, and has a good trigger. Then you have to look at the price.

For someone who isn't that serious about muzzleloaders, and just wants to hunt an extra season. The Wolf isn't a bad choice.

I'd prefer a Hawken, but that's me. :D

Dang it!!! Muley you actually said some thing I agree with... But, I guess Sharpshooter related to it first with "mr. average joe!"

For the "average joe" the Wolf might be a great starter when looking at price... same for me when I started with a Hunter Bolt then a Fire Bolt... but the illusion faded fast.

Oh! Renegades are better than Hawkins:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I mean the real Hawkens. At my age, and with a bad back. If someone gave me a real 12lb Hawken to hunt with. I'd go for it, and be smiling the whole time.

I love than gun!

Guess I might have stirred this up a bit. ;)

;) I thought that is why you included this little guy in your message... cuz u new u wood!

I don't need help. I stir myself. :biggrin:

Speaking of stirring things up a bit.............was this a bet?? My money is on SL!!!!!!!:popcorn:

Not a reasonable bet. Unless SL had the same deal with Knight that Jon has with CVA.

Some DISCs had a "CrossFire" breach plug which was intended to be used with pellets. Results with loose powders was marginal and IIRC they did offer another plug design which resolved issues with other loose subs.