Sqezer - You have a GOOD ONE!!!
 

Sqezer sent one of his 1-20 45 cal Knight Super DISC out west in the name of curiosity... my curiosity!!! :?

I have never shot a 1-20 and have always been sceptical of it because of the reputation that the 1-20 twist rifles built a few years back.

Up until now I was really happy with with my 1-30 twists and thought that maybe a 1-24/22 might work well but after shooting the Super DISC today - i could really get happy with a 1-20.
The gun proved to me today that I could shoot a fairly heavy load (120 grains of T7 - with a 200 grain Lehigh and a MMP sabot) and get great accuracy.

I went out to the farm more or less to test the breech plug I had built for Sqezer, to make sure it was clean. When I got the barreled action - I just dropped it into a DISC Elite stock that I had here and mounted a scope on it.... Remember the conversation about cheap scopes... well this is a cheap scope... $29 BSA DeerHunter - I have had it for several years and it has been on and off different ML's. But it worked well today... in fact any thing that you see 'not so good' it was the scopes fault anything that looks good is because I over came the scope and got the job done. :wink:

I really had not planned a long outing, as i said I was just checking the BP, but after 77 shots - i was one really happy camper.

I got the gun sighted in @ 25 yards very quickly and started shooting birds. Then I moved to 50 checked the the target again with 3 shots and another bunch of birds. Finally 50 yards proved to be 0 challenge even with the poor scope... I moved everthing to 100 yards. Shot a bunch of birds first and during that shooting I did turn the scope up another 2".

At this point I decided to try the Lehigh sabotless bullets that I had left from last summer. I had check them for fit in the house and was really confident and excited that they would fit this gun very well.

I ended up shooting 15 of these bullets... 12 version 1 and 6 version 2's. The version ones loaded very well in the gun. One good rap on the short starter drove the crown through the 3 barbs, then push it down with the ram rod. It was near a perfect fit and it was just as accurate as it took care of its' assigned birds. Then I tried version #2 bullet with 2 extra barbs... The short starter would run the barbs through the crown but bullet was just a few thousands to thick after the crown. The version #2 measures 0.4505 right after the last barb. Version #1 measures 0.4485. That slight difference makes a really big difference loading - but does not bother accuracy. These could become really good conicals. I hope Lehigh Dave is able to get back to them in the near future.

The last thing I did was to shoot a target - just for drill because target seem to carry the weight in showing off a gun... So here is the target.



Also here is a collection of pics from the outing...



I vote for the reintroduction of the Knight/GM 1-20 twist barrels.

Hope to get out with this gun a couple more times before I have to send it back home.

Thanks Leroy

When the rifle was dead on at 50 yards.. how much off at 100 yards was it? That is some real good shooting.

You might want to edit the title.

Glad I'm not the only one that likes the 1:20. Usually when I mention that twist I get lambasted. My 1:20 shoots sabots and conicals with great accuracy

ur right - i did

thanks

Um,is that you Chet?

At 50 I was just under and right of the bull bout 1". I did not adjust elevation there but I did adjust windage.

At a 100 I was in the bull and slightly right. Again I adjusted windage and up 4 clicks. i left that scope settings at that point and went to shooting for effect.

When I switched to the sabotless I did not move anything.

Oh! and the space between the four shots... that was because of the inferior scope, not me..:arms:

I knew that was the scope's fault Mike... you didn't even have to mention it. :s13:

So being a couple inches high at 50 should mean a little high at 100 yards. I am trying to pre guess that .45 of mine. It has a 4x32mm Simmons on it. I was shooting 200 grain XTPs at 50 into a very tight group that was about two inches high.

thanks - i knew you would understand..

I would think you will be right at the bull or a bit high @ 100.

Nice report and good shooting. 77 shots...I guess that'll do as a "test outing" ;) :D

Time to put the Leupold Ultimate Slam on er and see what she can really do. Nice Report and Good Shootin!
(BP)

That is exactly what I was going to put on - but I could not find any medium Weaver style rings any where in the house - so I ad to use low rings. Then talking on the phone last night to Sqezer I remembered I had stashed a pair of NIC STars - just couldn't remeber where until I found them by accident this morning...

looks like new scope time my 1-20 shoots as good as that one but never tryed the lehigh 200gr have some but have not tryed them but will soon every time aim ready to go its snowing here in colorado and the range is closed been shooting the barnes 195gr mz with Harvest smooth blue and 110gr to 120gr of BH209 at 100yds 3 shoots are touching put the barrel in a new stock and working on the fit that one looks like a shooter good shooting there sabotloader

Ive been saying it all along too. The original marketing load data was the problem, not the twist. Sure you may not get the best results with common 40cal bullets 180gr or less if you dont slow them down but those are usually for target shooting anyway.

155gr bullets and a 3 pellet load claiming 7mm/08 performance levels at the muzzle were a marketing disaster for the "SUPER" 45s. You might get the FPS but i highly doubt it would be accurate.

IMO most people that use a modern inline 45cal for hunting are not going to be using less than a Barnes 195gr or the Lehigh 185gr which are both longer than a copper/lead bullet of similar weight. Most are probably using a 200gr SST or XTP for the majority of their recreational shooting and hunting.

Quite a few people use even faster twists with 200gr class bullets and smokeless (in approved guns) with no problem and at even higher velocity than most sub gun loads including myself.

IMO the best part...at least for most subs is the benefit you will get from heavy conicals, just like Doc White got. His 451s are usually tack drivers with those huge 400gr+ slugs even at low fps. Combine that in a modern inline made for BH209 and you have a very hard hitting rifle with plenty of load options.

BTW call Bob Parker sometime and ask him about shooting BH209 and his BE series bullets sabotless in a faster twist 45. Granted its not for everyone but it opens even more doors for the good old 45s if you have some sizing dies.

Thank you Squezer and Sabotloader for your efforts. I really want to see the 45s make a strong return to the market and motivate vendors to do more for the caliber.

Thanks for posting this Sabotloader, Great Report.

Gm54-120

Excellent post and thanks for sharing your thoughts...

You and I have discussed the twist thing a couple of times and I not having any experiance with the higher twist rate really did not know what might work. You know that I also had a lengthly discussion with Del at MMP trying to gain information.

After this shooting session yesterday I think I have a little better feeling of what we were discssing. I was purposely shooting a heavy powder charge in the gun trying to blow out the MMP sabot it held up just fine. I also felt while shooting I could have jumped the powder up, but it was shooting so well - I just never got to it.

I was going to mail this rifle back here shortly but now I think I will hold onto it for awhile and do some additional shooting.

I really want to shoot some BH through the gun now as it increases the heat so much more than does T7. That ought to tax the sabots even more.

Plus... I shot up most of my Lehigh's 200's yesterday so I am forced to try some other bullets. I have some samples sent by people plus some XTP's, Gold Dots, and assorted other bullets.

Just say the Super DISC really did get my attention...

It were a fun outing... and now I have changed my plans and I really want to do more...

There are a couple of posts showing up in the LRH thread that a very informative (IMO) about the 1-20 twist that I would like to carry over here so I am going to try to re-post them here.

1.

2.

3. My replay to Builder

That is the very thing i was dealing with in my mind... the existing image. After shooting that image is completly reversed.

And that is the biggest problem facing a business today - the image - or really what will the public buy into.

Unless we (the shooters with a 1-20 twist gun) can show the image to be incorrect - it might be risky. Even if on a forum like this a few of us can show the it was a bad rap what reall good will that do for the majority of the ML shooters that have a bad image. We are so few and so many never even come here to see what might be happening.

From a business standpoint you might be right - but at this moment from a shooters perspective - i would say bring on the 1-20.

I do not know how Doc White developed his twist rates that were not following the norm - but if his 45 were 1-20 and his 50's are 1-24 - they certainly work. But as Cayugad has said there is more to it than just twist rate. Depth of the lands and grooves fall in there also.

Right now after my limited experiance - I would vote for a 1-20, not for what it will do inside a 100 yards but for what it can do outside of the 100 yard make in maintaining bullet stability.

I hope this does not cause a problem - but I think they are very pertainent to the conversation...

I haven't been posting much lately but this is one of my favorite topics and calibers. IMO it has more to offer than many people realize. Plus a 45cal is a joy to shoot for fun with the reduced recoil options.

My hope is, it becomes popular again and the aftermarket supports it better this time. I still think a 220gr 40 cal would be ideal in a lead/copper bullet. You really wont loose any fps vs a 200gr SST and it will carry a fair amount more FPE at longer ranges.

Ive shoot some PR 260gr .40 dead center bullets in my 1-20 and they shoot good but you have to push them with 120gr BH209 to get good groups less they open up this is not a bad twist just people just have to take the time to see what shoots in it and the sabots are better today then when they first came out I remmenber when i first got this gun in some were in the 80s almost give up on it

Has Knight even tested a .45 cal 1:24, with all the various bullet offerings?

That one I have no idea... but you would have to think during the dark days when they and others were searching for the right answer... it had to thought of.

And then again Doc passed on it for some reason... He set on the 1-20, but again because of long conicals... He won the last Manufactures cup shooting a 45 with a 1-18 twist if my memory serves...

Another thing to remember there is no such thing as 'over stabilization' the problem developes when the bullet is spinning so fast the manufacuring imperfections show up and start inducing 'wobble' If the bullet is round and balanced it can be spun without 'wobble' at high RPMs.

There are bullets on the market that meet the necessities and there are bullets that will not unless you reduce velocity.

In my case and maybe my error I assumed that sabot failure was the cause of most problems when driving the load out of a 1-20 barrel.

What is the most common twist rate of a 45-70 rifle?

Sabotloader, no offense,but doc adopted the 1:20 for his own reasons,big long conicals lol.this isn't where the markets at presently.the Stigma associated with the 1:20 IMHO isn't worth the effort to resurrect when the demand for the .45 cal is as low as it is.this leaves us with the standard 1:28 & 1:30 offerings.if knight wants to move away from the 1:30, seems to me the 1:24 middle ground, which i am willing to bet,shoots all the various bullet offerings well,sure seems like a better choice.i actually feel longer heavier bullet development would go a long way in bringing the popularity of the .45 cal M/L back :s4:jacketed high BC lead in the .220-.240 range.

my 45-70 is 1:18
my Gibbs is 1:18
My White English sporting rifle is 1:20
My other English sporting rifle is 1:18
My 45 knight is 1:20

I totally agree with you, that is exactly what Doc did. He also had the same goals with the 50 cal when he adopted the 1-24 twist for it. I have a 1-24 White UMag for several years and I have yet to find a bullet that it will not shoot extemely accurately, sabot or large conical. I even shoot all the 40 cals from it also. It is a great gun with what i think is a advantageious twist rate.

I think it might be possible that the 1-20 is that across the board good rate for a 45. I say that considering the common bullet that a person might use for big game hunting, not the previoulsy mention small lightweight bullets.

I am thinking I might have an even better handle on that after my next trip shooting BH and different bullets - smaller bullets. I even have some 357 bullets.

I think GM54-120 was even suggesting a 1-22 for the middle ground, apparently that rate is already being used by the smokeless guys.

I am not even sure what bullets are available in the 40 cal that would qualify for 'high BC lead in the 220-240 grain weights, unless you are considering sabotless in the 45 cal and again what is available in that market for the average shooter?

I have to respectfully disagree on that. I never cease to be amazed at what aggressive marketing can overcome.

Excluding the Knight... should not those twist rates give us a clue about the acceptable twist rate for a 45.

The factor comes in when instead of shooting full bore - you are shooting a sabot and bullet.

If the sabot will hold up and the bullet is well manufactured bullet it seems to me that it should work just as well.

Again a week ago I would have never engaged in this discussion because I had no clue and really I, myself, need to do some more shooting to get a good feeling on all of this.

As i have suggested where this all might show up best is at the longer ranges when the bullet has enough RPM with reduced velocity to remain more stabilized.

There are not many in .40 cal .220-.240, which is why i said "developing" more in that range might do more good than changing the twist!

Ray, I am asuming the .220 & .240 is weight 220 & 240 grains - correct.

If so I would also like to see that occur but I am not sure there is a big enough market to ever make that happen.

What does Barnes offer in that market area?

Doc's last big Friendship win was with the custom 36cal? but they did well in the past with his 40s and 45s also. You would have a hard timer finding an owner that does not like them.

Knight's Friendship target rifle was a 45cal 1-18 with a 28" barrel though. They won with it 5 or 6 years in a row until 2006 or 2005. Then Doc spanked them hard with the 36cal.

Yes SL, the 1-22 is a VERY popular twist with the smokeless 45cal guys. The two main barrel makers both use that twist quite often for the Savage/Rem 45cal conversion barrels. Mine is a Pacnor Super Match grade 1-22. 1-20 are more common on 45/70 conversion such as the H&Rs done by SMI. Brux will make any twist you want though because they are cut rifling. Most other companies are button rifled and will charge extra for a non standard twist button.

Precision Rifle makes 40cals upto 260gr in boat tails but you cant push the soft lead too fast. I can get 220gr FMJs cheap and Hawks offers some custom 40cal HPs/SPs too for $1 each.

Sorry but from a pure business stand point and considering knight is trying to make a comeback. it makes no sense to even try,especially considering the lack of interest in the 45 cal market.reintroducing failed products for whatever reason(be it rifles or there twist rate and calibers) is never good business.introducing innovative products and twist rates that work well with everything available,is far more conducive to selling more of your products..:arms:

Sqezer

Just now getting around to cleaning the rifle, removed the bolt and wanted you to see the area after 76 shots with the modified Lehigh Breech Plug

The thing is no twist rate works well for everything. Most guns regardless of caliber or twist still require a person to find or work up the best load for it. The 1:20 is no different .If anything it was simply to far ahead of its time and now could very well be the right time to introduce it as an excellent choice. In the past I think the image of blackpowder was one of short range , 100 yards or less. Now blackpowder is coming into it's own as a viable long range gun. Therefore the 1:20 is marketable because it is a long range twist and more people are stretching the limits . That opens up an expanding market. If anything it could create a bigger market share by offering and developing bullets to market along with it. Bullets proven to be deadly and accurate in that twist.

Is that you MM, why the name chage???

I asked the same thing yesterday!

The 1/24 twist is a very bad idea in the 45cal. The reason being you will be limited on bullet length. Knight rifles practically own there own bullet company. They will make high BC, long range bullets for there customers. It's that simple.

The people who want to use a 195 Barnes or a 200grn SST can still use them if they want. I tested 175 Barnes, 195 barnes, and the 200grn SST in the 45cal 120 twist barrels. The accuracy is outstanding.

I already know of two 40cal bullets that are being made for me to test. One is a 225grn 40cal, and the other is a 250grn 40cal. Though i think over kill on Deer size game, they will be awesome for long range shooting at Deer size game.

While you sound dead set - I am not that sure that the 1-24 would not be alright in a 45. I would suspect that Dave has done some mathematical calculations that indicate what might happen with that twist rate.

I can tell you that from a White 1-24 twist, 40 cal bullets shoot lights out - long ones or short ones. However, I have never shot any of the really short .357 bullets from it.

Again while the 1-24 may not be the BEST it might not be the worst either. Even the current 1-30 is not the worst, and several companies are working along with a 1-28.

Heck, maybe the 1-20 is not even the BEST, but it certainly appears to work very well.

Nothing wrong with a 1/24 at all. As a matter of fact my 1/30 45 will shoot with any ML on the market today at 2500fps. Dave was thinking faster like 1/18 but i think 1/20 is just fine. It opens up a wide variety of bullets. From the short 175grn Barnes to the long 250grn Bloodline. People can pick there own medicine. The 1/24 does not mathematicaly shoot the bullets Knight is planning on making.

I was really surprised when i used 100grns of Pyrodex and shot sub 1" groups with short muzzleloader bullets. Knight rifles in the end will do what they want. They have the same barrels i do and are seeing the same results. How they choose to run or market there business is totally up to them.

Example: I would of never made the Mountaineer a 27" barrel. It would of been 24 or 25 if it was my decision. Again there decisions right or wrong have been very profitable to say the least.

Correct and I have the same feeling about the 1-30 but not a lot of people really want to move that far out on the load spectrum. Most folks are happy and functional with 2000 fps in their hunting situations.

From my limited information I think Dave is correct - the 1-18 might be the best for a specific class of bullets and it would fill the bill for some people. I just am not sure it would be universal enough to fit everyone or a the majority of everyone.

Have you tested any of the non-premium bullets that most people might shoot, not all folks run out and buy the buck a bullet type projectiles. Will the 1-20 work for these folks also? We already know the 1-20 will work for long conicals, so there is no need to work them. It is the copper clad bullets at the other end of the spectrum that it might be nice to know about. It could be a lot easier for 'wobble' to be induced in them with the 1-20 twist, unless you are just writing that group of hunters off.

You have more working information that i do at this point about the 1-20, White 451 shooters probably have more - but at this point I am in agreement with you. I feel I still need to do some additional shooting with the gun to really get that confident feeling, but at this time I see no way the twist can fail.

The 1-30 does not mathematically shoot the Lehigh 40-200 at lower velocities either... but in real life and my Knight - it shoots them fine @ 2100 fps. Mathematics calcualtions are not always the final answer.

True enough but that does not prevent us, the shooters, from specualtion or shooting to try find our own answers.

[/quote]Example: I would of never made the Mountaineer a 27" barrel. It would of been 24 or 25 if it was my decision. Again there decisions right or wrong have been very profitable to say the least.[/quote]

You already know I am in agreement for the most part with this one also - I would have really liked the 25-26" barrels for the woods hunting that I do.

With all the pre sale hype, I guess we know what twist the new .45's will be. Very dissappointed!!!

Just like the.52, who wants to be locked into almost having to buy your bullets from one source? Sounds like a way to charge whatever you want for the bullets, once you convince someone to buy the rifle. I will pass....