Has Knight even tested a .45 cal 1:24, with all the various bullet offerings?

That one I have no idea... but you would have to think during the dark days when they and others were searching for the right answer... it had to thought of.

And then again Doc passed on it for some reason... He set on the 1-20, but again because of long conicals... He won the last Manufactures cup shooting a 45 with a 1-18 twist if my memory serves...

Another thing to remember there is no such thing as 'over stabilization' the problem developes when the bullet is spinning so fast the manufacuring imperfections show up and start inducing 'wobble' If the bullet is round and balanced it can be spun without 'wobble' at high RPMs.

There are bullets on the market that meet the necessities and there are bullets that will not unless you reduce velocity.

In my case and maybe my error I assumed that sabot failure was the cause of most problems when driving the load out of a 1-20 barrel.

What is the most common twist rate of a 45-70 rifle?

Sabotloader, no offense,but doc adopted the 1:20 for his own reasons,big long conicals lol.this isn't where the markets at presently.the Stigma associated with the 1:20 IMHO isn't worth the effort to resurrect when the demand for the .45 cal is as low as it is.this leaves us with the standard 1:28 & 1:30 offerings.if knight wants to move away from the 1:30, seems to me the 1:24 middle ground, which i am willing to bet,shoots all the various bullet offerings well,sure seems like a better choice.i actually feel longer heavier bullet development would go a long way in bringing the popularity of the .45 cal M/L back :s4:jacketed high BC lead in the .220-.240 range.

my 45-70 is 1:18
my Gibbs is 1:18
My White English sporting rifle is 1:20
My other English sporting rifle is 1:18
My 45 knight is 1:20

I totally agree with you, that is exactly what Doc did. He also had the same goals with the 50 cal when he adopted the 1-24 twist for it. I have a 1-24 White UMag for several years and I have yet to find a bullet that it will not shoot extemely accurately, sabot or large conical. I even shoot all the 40 cals from it also. It is a great gun with what i think is a advantageious twist rate.

I think it might be possible that the 1-20 is that across the board good rate for a 45. I say that considering the common bullet that a person might use for big game hunting, not the previoulsy mention small lightweight bullets.

I am thinking I might have an even better handle on that after my next trip shooting BH and different bullets - smaller bullets. I even have some 357 bullets.

I think GM54-120 was even suggesting a 1-22 for the middle ground, apparently that rate is already being used by the smokeless guys.

I am not even sure what bullets are available in the 40 cal that would qualify for 'high BC lead in the 220-240 grain weights, unless you are considering sabotless in the 45 cal and again what is available in that market for the average shooter?

I have to respectfully disagree on that. I never cease to be amazed at what aggressive marketing can overcome.

Excluding the Knight... should not those twist rates give us a clue about the acceptable twist rate for a 45.

The factor comes in when instead of shooting full bore - you are shooting a sabot and bullet.

If the sabot will hold up and the bullet is well manufactured bullet it seems to me that it should work just as well.

Again a week ago I would have never engaged in this discussion because I had no clue and really I, myself, need to do some more shooting to get a good feeling on all of this.

As i have suggested where this all might show up best is at the longer ranges when the bullet has enough RPM with reduced velocity to remain more stabilized.

There are not many in .40 cal .220-.240, which is why i said "developing" more in that range might do more good than changing the twist!

Ray, I am asuming the .220 & .240 is weight 220 & 240 grains - correct.

If so I would also like to see that occur but I am not sure there is a big enough market to ever make that happen.

What does Barnes offer in that market area?

Doc's last big Friendship win was with the custom 36cal? but they did well in the past with his 40s and 45s also. You would have a hard timer finding an owner that does not like them.

Knight's Friendship target rifle was a 45cal 1-18 with a 28" barrel though. They won with it 5 or 6 years in a row until 2006 or 2005. Then Doc spanked them hard with the 36cal.

Yes SL, the 1-22 is a VERY popular twist with the smokeless 45cal guys. The two main barrel makers both use that twist quite often for the Savage/Rem 45cal conversion barrels. Mine is a Pacnor Super Match grade 1-22. 1-20 are more common on 45/70 conversion such as the H&Rs done by SMI. Brux will make any twist you want though because they are cut rifling. Most other companies are button rifled and will charge extra for a non standard twist button.

Precision Rifle makes 40cals upto 260gr in boat tails but you cant push the soft lead too fast. I can get 220gr FMJs cheap and Hawks offers some custom 40cal HPs/SPs too for $1 each.