Need helpful advice about frustrating day at range
 

Gents,

I have been having trouble getting acceptable results from my Knight Elite. I have a Leupold scope on the rifle that went back to the factory last year to be repaired because I could not get the rifle to group. Since then I have been using my other ML's for shooting an hunting. The groups look a little better than before the scope repair, but still not that great. I don't think it is operator error because I can group 2" with my BK92 will open sights.

The details are as follows:

BH209 with Winchester primers. The rifle is equiped with a Lehigh conversion. The bullet is a 240gr. Harvester Scorpion PT. The sabot is Harvester H5045SB. The range is 100 yards. I fired one three shot group with a)100 grains of powder, one with b)110 grains and one with c)120 grains. As you can see from the photos, it seems to like 120 grains of powder with this bullet/sabot combination. I adjusted the scope down three inches and fired two more groups d) & e). As you can see the last two opened up alot. This was a similiar problem before Leupold reworked the scope. It is now less pronounced, but the rifle still makes fliers. I can usually count on one flyer out of five shots. As noted above I can beat these groups with my open sighted BK92.

I did spend some time in the Marine Corps and would consistantly score 270 to 280 at my range qualification each year. I do know proper technique and have been very careful with each of these groups. I think the problem is something else, but I don't know what. Any help is appreciated.

You got any stock to barrel contact in front? Bedding that rifle might help. Just a couple thoughts.

I have never shot the 240gr PT's so no info there.

Might want to try a different bullet combo to see if it groups better? Maybe a 250gr SST, they are normally an accurate bullet but then again so are the PT's. Are you compressing the bullet on the charge the same each time? Flash hole decarboned with a 5/32 drill bit by hand lately? I take the vent liner out after each range session and run a 5/32 bit the whole way through.

Could you pull the Leupold off and put it on a different gun that you know shoots great? Would rule the scope out. Another option is to drop back to 50yds and strive for a cloverleaf which should be achieveable with your set up.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Just saw the targets. The one 120gr group looks pretty good.

Flounder, I have thought about bedding the rifle. The Elite has a special recoil lug that is supposed to keep the front of the stock from contacting the barrel once the rifle is assembled. It is a good idea to move the scope. I could put it on the BK92 since I already have bases and rings for it.

Omega45, I have shot every bullet sabot combination you can image. I am a hopeless tinkerer when it comes to bullets and sabots. Unfortunately I have never found any combo that shoots as well as this one.

from the looks of it a bedding job may help and look at your barrel floating and try some 250gr barnes tez with HBCR with 100gr to 110gr bh209 and CCI209M primers

I think you should try a different powder and see what happens.

deleted : no longer want to be on the forum

Dutch, i have yet to find a regular bullet or powder that the a Knight will not shoot well if everything is the gun is right.

I have to go along with Flounder's original thought... I believe you have barreled action to stock - fit problem. And belive me it does not take much...

The forked recoil lug was and is a very good idea by Knight but if the gun is not fitted to the stock correctly the Cantilever will not work any better than any other recoil lug. In fact if the barreled action is fitted correctly the regular Extreme will shoot just as well as the Elite.

If you a using a Composite stock you might not even need to worry about bedding - just fit.

I wrote this up for another shooter several months ago I will post it here and maybe you could read through it and see if any of it applys to you.



Check this and let me know what you might find.... if it is none of this them we are back to the normal thing... tight bases... tight rings... and to a certain point even trigger pull...

One other thing you might try... when you put the barreled action back into the stock, start the lug screw into the lug - stand the rifle on the recoil pad and bump the recoil pad gently up and down on the floor to insure that the barreled action is completely to the rear in the stock. After the tapping and while the rifle is still verticle tighten the recoil lug screw. Then just for drill check it with a $ bill and see if it slips between the barrel and stock all the way down to the recoil lug.

Sabotloader,

This is really great information. I just finished cleaning the rifle, so I reassembled the way you suggest with the tapping proceedure. I have squeezed the forearm and pulled back just as you describe above. I could not detect any inference. The dollar bill test and the printer paper test both stop at 5.5 inches above the lug screw. This seems fairly far forward to me. Do you think this area needs to be sanded to clear the channel further back? It is the black plastic stock. It feels quite flimsy out at the end. Two bills will easily fit in the gap near the end of the stock. The double bills will slide down to within a half inch of the spot one bill will reach.

One other thing to look at, I would look at the rings and bases. Make sure they are tight. I have had the gun climb with me before because of this problem.

Thanks One. I just checked the scope at your suggestion. It appears to be okay. No movement and the screw heads are tight.

If it were mine I would positively say yes that area really could be your problem as the barrel heats and expands. Further if there were more pressure on one side or the other it would move POI away from the pressure.

The ideal of the Cantilever lug is to float the whole barrel to the recoil lug. They went to this method as that allowed them the flexibilty of creating a stock that would fit a whole of barreld actions with very minor hand work at Knight.

The best method would be if the stock fit snugly at all surfaces that touched the barrel. If you were to fully bed the stock that is what you would do.

If you take your stock off again look at the bridge, from one side of the stock to the other. just behind the lug pocket This and the recoil lug should be the only contact area in the stock...

If you want to do an experiment, find an aluminum pop can and cut a shim from it to fit in the bottom of the lug pocket. Insert it in the pocket and locate where the lug screw hole is. Then with a hole punch punch a hole in the shim. Now install the barreled action again - I bet it floats or is really close to floating.

Another thing if you look closely at the barrel channel in the stock you might be able to see polished area on the support rails where the bore as worn a smooth shiny spot.

I think you have really found your problem and very light progressive sanding is in order. Do not sand the bridge...

Befor I tried any of the following things that were commented on, and they were all good one's, I'd try shooting the MLer (without) a scope on it at say 40-50 yds and see what happens, how does it group then? If after everything you try, bullets, powder, sabots, bedding, scope, ect dont work then I'd say you have a Barrel that just does'nt like to be shot.
Good Luck!
(BP)

Good morning Sabotloader and Breechplug,

Breech, unfortunately the rifle does not have open sights. Otherwise I would give that a try.

Sabotloader, if I can find time today (big if) I will fool around with it a little bit. I will try the pop can shim first. I will have some time for some more range work next week. Lets see what happens.

Again I have to tell everyone thank you for your help. I knew I would get good advice and help here.

Merry Christmas everyone.

The screw on my .50 DISC Elite was too long. It bottomed in the lug before the barrel was tight to the receiver. I even rechased the threads with a bottoming tap to clean out the bottom couple of threads. The shim might correct this situation also. I bedded mine after a couple of range session with a moving POI and it has been rock solid ever since. Let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks JST, it sounds like you had the same issues as me. I am going to try the shim, then I will try bedding it. From the discussions here, plus the fact Leupold already reworked the scope, I am fairly convinced that it is a stock/bedding issue.

Merry Christmas.

When you bedded the Elite did you just bed the recoil lug pocket or did you run up the barrel a ways?

I'm think of a bed job on my 45 Elite but floating barrel concept has my wondering.

Thanks...

It is bedded just in front of the trigger to just in front of the recoil lug about 1". It is floated the rest of the way. All my Knights are done this way DISCs and MKs.

Dutch How fast are you shooting? My Omega will throw a flier on the third shot if I do not let it cool down. Mu stock is shimmed and the barrel floated back to the front lug. Try cooling down the barrel before you make yourself crazy.If it does not work,then try the other ideas posted here,they are all good ones.

Semper Fi
Charlie

I take a minimum of 5 minutes and up to 10 minutes between shots depending on the outside temperature. I never shoot above 70 degrees as it takes too long for the barrel to cool back down.

Gents,

There is probably something to the heated barrel. Shooting BH209 lets one proceed much faster as there is no swabbing between shots. The day at the range was 30 outside and 60 inside the range house. I was on the bench adjacent to the RH door so I could step inside to load (my momma didnt raise no fool). However I was careful to ensure that the barrel was cool. Not cold, but cool. (about 5 minutes between shots)

Every Knight I have ever shot was a shooter. I have strong suspisions that the bedding is exacerbating the problem. I love tinkering with the ML's anyway, so I am going to improve the bedding anyway. To be honest I didnt have an idea how to fully bed the stock and keep the ramrod channel free. Thus I am glad to hear that the action area is all that is needed.

What i did was cut a piece of wood that would fill the ram rod channel without affecting where the barrel wanted to be. Then i put masking tape over it to make kind of a seal. The other fella that does a great job bedding judging by his pictures; he say he used silly putty to preserve the channel.

Molding clay works very well.

Jsteurrys,

I will give it a try. I think my wife has some in here art supplies.

The 120 grain load looks pretty good to me, I wouldn't complain about that. But the other groups were so-so. What about trying a new bullet?

oldsmellhound
I have to agree about trying a new bullet, I have several good shooting rifles that just won't shoot that 240gr. My Triumph for instance won't but shoots 250gr and 200 gr Shock Waves 250 gr Lehigh 250 gr XTP and 250 gr Deep Curls into an inch some take a bit more or less powder and the FPB shoots best with 90 gr BH the rest will shoot an inch when I do my job and the loads vary from 100 to 120 gr of BH.
Some times the barrel whip of a certain gun and bullet are out of time with each other and all you can do is use a different bullet.