Need helpful advice about frustrating day at range
12-23-2011, 02:19 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 220
Need helpful advice about frustrating day at range
Gents,
I have been having trouble getting acceptable results from my Knight Elite. I have a Leupold scope on the rifle that went back to the factory last year to be repaired because I could not get the rifle to group. Since then I have been using my other ML's for shooting an hunting. The groups look a little better than before the scope repair, but still not that great. I don't think it is operator error because I can group 2" with my BK92 will open sights.
The details are as follows:
BH209 with Winchester primers. The rifle is equiped with a Lehigh conversion. The bullet is a 240gr. Harvester Scorpion PT. The sabot is Harvester H5045SB. The range is 100 yards. I fired one three shot group with a)100 grains of powder, one with b)110 grains and one with c)120 grains. As you can see from the photos, it seems to like 120 grains of powder with this bullet/sabot combination. I adjusted the scope down three inches and fired two more groups d) & e). As you can see the last two opened up alot. This was a similiar problem before Leupold reworked the scope. It is now less pronounced, but the rifle still makes fliers. I can usually count on one flyer out of five shots. As noted above I can beat these groups with my open sighted BK92.
I did spend some time in the Marine Corps and would consistantly score 270 to 280 at my range qualification each year. I do know proper technique and have been very careful with each of these groups. I think the problem is something else, but I don't know what. Any help is appreciated.
I have been having trouble getting acceptable results from my Knight Elite. I have a Leupold scope on the rifle that went back to the factory last year to be repaired because I could not get the rifle to group. Since then I have been using my other ML's for shooting an hunting. The groups look a little better than before the scope repair, but still not that great. I don't think it is operator error because I can group 2" with my BK92 will open sights.
The details are as follows:
BH209 with Winchester primers. The rifle is equiped with a Lehigh conversion. The bullet is a 240gr. Harvester Scorpion PT. The sabot is Harvester H5045SB. The range is 100 yards. I fired one three shot group with a)100 grains of powder, one with b)110 grains and one with c)120 grains. As you can see from the photos, it seems to like 120 grains of powder with this bullet/sabot combination. I adjusted the scope down three inches and fired two more groups d) & e). As you can see the last two opened up alot. This was a similiar problem before Leupold reworked the scope. It is now less pronounced, but the rifle still makes fliers. I can usually count on one flyer out of five shots. As noted above I can beat these groups with my open sighted BK92.
I did spend some time in the Marine Corps and would consistantly score 270 to 280 at my range qualification each year. I do know proper technique and have been very careful with each of these groups. I think the problem is something else, but I don't know what. Any help is appreciated.
12-23-2011, 02:38 PM
#3
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MD/PA Line
Posts: 598
I have never shot the 240gr PT's so no info there.
Might want to try a different bullet combo to see if it groups better? Maybe a 250gr SST, they are normally an accurate bullet but then again so are the PT's. Are you compressing the bullet on the charge the same each time? Flash hole decarboned with a 5/32 drill bit by hand lately? I take the vent liner out after each range session and run a 5/32 bit the whole way through.
Could you pull the Leupold off and put it on a different gun that you know shoots great? Would rule the scope out. Another option is to drop back to 50yds and strive for a cloverleaf which should be achieveable with your set up.
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Just saw the targets. The one 120gr group looks pretty good.
Might want to try a different bullet combo to see if it groups better? Maybe a 250gr SST, they are normally an accurate bullet but then again so are the PT's. Are you compressing the bullet on the charge the same each time? Flash hole decarboned with a 5/32 drill bit by hand lately? I take the vent liner out after each range session and run a 5/32 bit the whole way through.
Could you pull the Leupold off and put it on a different gun that you know shoots great? Would rule the scope out. Another option is to drop back to 50yds and strive for a cloverleaf which should be achieveable with your set up.
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Just saw the targets. The one 120gr group looks pretty good.
Last edited by Omega45; 12-23-2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Looked at group pics.
12-23-2011, 02:47 PM
#4
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 220
Flounder, I have thought about bedding the rifle. The Elite has a special recoil lug that is supposed to keep the front of the stock from contacting the barrel once the rifle is assembled. It is a good idea to move the scope. I could put it on the BK92 since I already have bases and rings for it.
Omega45, I have shot every bullet sabot combination you can image. I am a hopeless tinkerer when it comes to bullets and sabots. Unfortunately I have never found any combo that shoots as well as this one.
Omega45, I have shot every bullet sabot combination you can image. I am a hopeless tinkerer when it comes to bullets and sabots. Unfortunately I have never found any combo that shoots as well as this one.
12-23-2011, 03:35 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Flounder, I have thought about bedding the rifle. The Elite has a special recoil lug that is supposed to keep the front of the stock from contacting the barrel once the rifle is assembled. It is a good idea to move the scope. I could put it on the BK92 since I already have bases and rings for it.
Omega45, I have shot every bullet sabot combination you can image. I am a hopeless tinkerer when it comes to bullets and sabots. Unfortunately I have never found any combo that shoots as well as this one.
Omega45, I have shot every bullet sabot combination you can image. I am a hopeless tinkerer when it comes to bullets and sabots. Unfortunately I have never found any combo that shoots as well as this one.
I have to go along with Flounder's original thought... I believe you have barreled action to stock - fit problem. And belive me it does not take much...
The forked recoil lug was and is a very good idea by Knight but if the gun is not fitted to the stock correctly the Cantilever will not work any better than any other recoil lug. In fact if the barreled action is fitted correctly the regular Extreme will shoot just as well as the Elite.
If you a using a Composite stock you might not even need to worry about bedding - just fit.
I wrote this up for another shooter several months ago I will post it here and maybe you could read through it and see if any of it applys to you.
Checking the Fit of Knight stock
Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....
I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...
Quote:
Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.
I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.
In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.
When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.
If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.
During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!
The last test to try is exactly the opposite of the tests above. Grab the fore end of the stock firmly in one hand and with the other hand pull the barrel upward out of the stock and see if the barrel sticks or rubs at any point.
Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....
mike
Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....
I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...
Quote:
Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.
I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.
In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.
When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.
If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.
During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!
The last test to try is exactly the opposite of the tests above. Grab the fore end of the stock firmly in one hand and with the other hand pull the barrel upward out of the stock and see if the barrel sticks or rubs at any point.
Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....
mike
Check this and let me know what you might find.... if it is none of this them we are back to the normal thing... tight bases... tight rings... and to a certain point even trigger pull...
One other thing you might try... when you put the barreled action back into the stock, start the lug screw into the lug - stand the rifle on the recoil pad and bump the recoil pad gently up and down on the floor to insure that the barreled action is completely to the rear in the stock. After the tapping and while the rifle is still verticle tighten the recoil lug screw. Then just for drill check it with a $ bill and see if it slips between the barrel and stock all the way down to the recoil lug.
Last edited by sabotloader; 12-23-2011 at 03:39 PM.
12-23-2011, 05:36 PM
#9
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 220
Sabotloader,
This is really great information. I just finished cleaning the rifle, so I reassembled the way you suggest with the tapping proceedure. I have squeezed the forearm and pulled back just as you describe above. I could not detect any inference. The dollar bill test and the printer paper test both stop at 5.5 inches above the lug screw. This seems fairly far forward to me. Do you think this area needs to be sanded to clear the channel further back? It is the black plastic stock. It feels quite flimsy out at the end. Two bills will easily fit in the gap near the end of the stock. The double bills will slide down to within a half inch of the spot one bill will reach.
This is really great information. I just finished cleaning the rifle, so I reassembled the way you suggest with the tapping proceedure. I have squeezed the forearm and pulled back just as you describe above. I could not detect any inference. The dollar bill test and the printer paper test both stop at 5.5 inches above the lug screw. This seems fairly far forward to me. Do you think this area needs to be sanded to clear the channel further back? It is the black plastic stock. It feels quite flimsy out at the end. Two bills will easily fit in the gap near the end of the stock. The double bills will slide down to within a half inch of the spot one bill will reach.