Dont get to excited yet.
12-13-2011, 04:04 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Dont get to excited yet.
Mountaineer magic started a pretty good thread about the 1/20 twist barrels the other day. After shooting two 1/20 twist muzzleloaders this past weekend i was really excited until now. There might actually still be a problem.
I was talking to Dave from Lehigh Defense tonight about the two new bullets he is making for the 45cal fast twist Muzzleloader. One is a 250grn 40cal bullet, and the other is a 225grn 40cal bullet. Yes these will be brass bullets and long very high BC bullets.
During the conversation he was explaining to me how a fast twist barrel will make a poor designed bullet fly worse. In simple terms, a hollow point off center. Even tipped bullets have hollow points for the tips. So this started me thinking about the different bullets people use and the inconsistencies in them today. Jacketed bullets are more then likely going to be the worst.
This makes me wonder now, was the sabots the problem in the past or the bullets????? I know everyone thinks sabots, but i'm not convinced of that at all right now. Lets think about two bullets that are very popular that come to mind right away to me. Hornady XTP'S and SST'S. They are both jacketed bullets. And both are right up there in popularity with Powerbelts in my opinion. And i will say both are really accurate with sabots in 1/28 twist ML's.
My speculation today is, Modern day Muzzleloader twists are built around poor designed or put together bullets? Sounds crazy but its possible i think.
Lets talk about Lehigh/Bloodline bullets. Some like the design some don't. That's life to be honest, but you cant take away how well they are made. They are machined to very tight tolerances and consistencies wether they work good or not. Another bullet built around very tight tolerances are Cecil Epps Deadcenter bullets. If my thinking is correct i bet Deadcenter bullets shoot very well in the 1/20 twist as well. Of course under 2000fps with lead.
The next best bullet i would think would be a Barnes because they are a solid bullet. I would think a solid bullet would be alot easier to make consistent then a jacketed bullet for example. But if the hollow point in the Barnes is a little off center forget it in a 1/20 twist. This is what i was getting from Dave. That same bullet might shoot lights out in a 1/28 twist?????
This thread is not about who makes the best bullet. This thread is about who makes a bullet that will shoot in a 45 cal 1/20 twist saboted ML.
So i guess my testing has just begun. I need to shoot a wide variety of bullets to prove right or wrong to this theory. No way in the world could Knight Rifles make and build a ML to shoot one specific bullet. I guess they could but i would not suggest it.
This weekend i will try a variety of different bullets and also try the MMP sabots as well. I think this is going to be interesting when all said and done.
I was talking to Dave from Lehigh Defense tonight about the two new bullets he is making for the 45cal fast twist Muzzleloader. One is a 250grn 40cal bullet, and the other is a 225grn 40cal bullet. Yes these will be brass bullets and long very high BC bullets.
During the conversation he was explaining to me how a fast twist barrel will make a poor designed bullet fly worse. In simple terms, a hollow point off center. Even tipped bullets have hollow points for the tips. So this started me thinking about the different bullets people use and the inconsistencies in them today. Jacketed bullets are more then likely going to be the worst.
This makes me wonder now, was the sabots the problem in the past or the bullets????? I know everyone thinks sabots, but i'm not convinced of that at all right now. Lets think about two bullets that are very popular that come to mind right away to me. Hornady XTP'S and SST'S. They are both jacketed bullets. And both are right up there in popularity with Powerbelts in my opinion. And i will say both are really accurate with sabots in 1/28 twist ML's.
My speculation today is, Modern day Muzzleloader twists are built around poor designed or put together bullets? Sounds crazy but its possible i think.
Lets talk about Lehigh/Bloodline bullets. Some like the design some don't. That's life to be honest, but you cant take away how well they are made. They are machined to very tight tolerances and consistencies wether they work good or not. Another bullet built around very tight tolerances are Cecil Epps Deadcenter bullets. If my thinking is correct i bet Deadcenter bullets shoot very well in the 1/20 twist as well. Of course under 2000fps with lead.
The next best bullet i would think would be a Barnes because they are a solid bullet. I would think a solid bullet would be alot easier to make consistent then a jacketed bullet for example. But if the hollow point in the Barnes is a little off center forget it in a 1/20 twist. This is what i was getting from Dave. That same bullet might shoot lights out in a 1/28 twist?????
This thread is not about who makes the best bullet. This thread is about who makes a bullet that will shoot in a 45 cal 1/20 twist saboted ML.
So i guess my testing has just begun. I need to shoot a wide variety of bullets to prove right or wrong to this theory. No way in the world could Knight Rifles make and build a ML to shoot one specific bullet. I guess they could but i would not suggest it.
This weekend i will try a variety of different bullets and also try the MMP sabots as well. I think this is going to be interesting when all said and done.
12-13-2011, 04:14 PM
#3
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
I really don't see a point with a 1:20 twist. I get amazing accuracy with a 454gr conical and a slow 1:48 twist. A 1:20 twist would be for something that none of us shoot..... 700gr conicals.
Now with the " some bullets will shoot worse" theory, it sounds like a bigger oopsie than when they came out with the .52cal.
Now with the " some bullets will shoot worse" theory, it sounds like a bigger oopsie than when they came out with the .52cal.
12-13-2011, 04:23 PM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
Grouse, I'm not too sure about the problem. T/C's Encore .45-70 barrel and Marlin's Guide gun both have a 1:20 twist rate and they both shoot well. T/C's 45-70 pistol barrel has a 1:14 twist rate. And most of the 40s have a 1:16 twist rate.
But going thru the numbers (http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/twistrate.htm) with a .451 groove dia and MV of 1800 fps, optimum bullet length of 1.5" would be needed for a 1:20 twist rate. That's one long bullet. For a 1:28 twist rate, all else being equal, a bullet length of just over an inch would be ideal.
But according to these calculations, my Marlin Guide gun with the 1:20 twist should never be able to shoot the short stubby 300 gr Hornady bullets. But it does and shoots them well.
But going thru the numbers (http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/twistrate.htm) with a .451 groove dia and MV of 1800 fps, optimum bullet length of 1.5" would be needed for a 1:20 twist rate. That's one long bullet. For a 1:28 twist rate, all else being equal, a bullet length of just over an inch would be ideal.
But according to these calculations, my Marlin Guide gun with the 1:20 twist should never be able to shoot the short stubby 300 gr Hornady bullets. But it does and shoots them well.
12-13-2011, 04:28 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Most people dont know the true advantage of the Knight 52cal rifle. To me it's the 1/26 twist barrel. Knight does not promote that at all. That gun shoots all the bullets very well. That would also be a great Conical shooter to. I'm sure it would be easy to make bullets for.
12-13-2011, 04:33 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Most wont just like you. The guy looking for speed and high BC will. A good example is Dougs board. Those guys are buying $600.00 Savages taking the barrel off and spending another fortune for a 45cal barrel in a 1/22 twist.