Knight lovers are going to be happier in 2012
 

I got word on alot of new products coming. Break opens, fast twist 45, and a improved Vision are a few of many. I hope they hire some more people real soon. Thousand plus orders a week are going out and they obviously are not keeping up. They need to start the weekend shift real soon. Lol

Tom is fast twist 1 in 20 or 1 in 24>?

Grouse45

I know last week when i talked to Robin she was a bit uptight about the number of orders they are recieving and not being able to get everything out as fast as she and the front-liners would like. She says that the standard 7-14 days is very hard to stay with as they are shipping so much stuff.

I really think Knight would hope that other e-retailers representatives would pick up more of the orders.

I remember in the old days there was an e-retailer in Michigan (I think) that had everything and got the stuff out really quick.

I am not sure that they know yet... They are going to have to spend some money on R&D on that one.

I know they have done the math as you have but in real world shooting I am not sure they know.

They tried the 1-20 once...

Just out of curiosity what twist are the smokeless guys using in the 45?

This doesn't mean diddly but I really would like to try a 1-24 twist in a 45...

I know Doc White went with a 1-20 twist but he will tell you it was to shoot long heavy lead conicals, he was not much interested in shooting sabots.

Of course this all speculation on my part.

would like to see what they have coming out sounds reel good

Well its good to know that the new products are in such demand from Knight, but its their obligation to hire new employees that can make this work. I am sure they will be doing this, as customer service is key to all companies in this modern day and age.

As for the new rifles, they sound interesting. I guess we just have to wait and see.

A fast twist 45 caliber would be areal good seller I would think. Not necessarily for the average hunter. But I still believe there would be a good market for it. I would like to see it about .458 to duplicate the same diameter as a regular rifle. Plenty of great bullets would be available for that rifle . But .451 would also be pretty good so shooters and hunters could use the Whitworth bullets.

However if they are going after the long range market I don't think a break action would be conducive to sales. Tom.

Glad to hear it. Perhaps that .45 will have to be in my future.

Any word on that other project?

The majority of smokeless 45s are using a 1-22 and well proven with current bullets. It should likely still work well with conventional bullet upto 240-260gr such as the PRs and monolithics upto around 220gr or a bit more. The PRs are only limited by the soft lead which will deform in flight if shot too fast. A plated/bonded or jacketed 40 in that range wouldn't have those limits. Doc actually did have some PowerStar sabots shooting soft lead 350gr bulllets IIRC in the 1-20s in the 1600fps range.

They may sound slow but run it through a calculator out to 250 yards sometime with his advertised BC. ;)

1-24 would be a interesting twist for current bullets and higher speeds. It should still be fast enough for some sabotless weights and conicals. Maybe not as heavy as the White conicals but close.

1-22 would be the easiest for testing since its a common twist offered by many barrel makers. It works with current sabotted bullets from 1900fps-3000fps. BH209 speeds can approach the middle of that number so IMO its a good place to start. It also works with sabotless bullets from 250-325gr in the 2200-2600fps+ range. BH209 has also been tested sabotless with this twist with loads over 120grV with reasonable success if you get the correct bullet to bore fit. Even Bob Parker had one made and was shooting a sabotless 250gr well over 2000fps IIRC with 110grV BH209.

Pressures are surprising low with BH209 sabotless too. Swinglock shot a sabotless 350gr with 84grW and got about 2000fps but he used a 1-18 twist since it was a dedicated sabotless gun. The test barrel showed well under 28k psi with that load. He also wanted to use mainly bullets offered for the 458 class of guns which tend to be heavier.

Knight's target rifle in 45cal (DE658) from the 2006 catalog also used that twist with big conicals for most of its wins at Friendship. IMO that twist would be more dedicated to a single purpose and less flexible with subs. At least until some really heavy bullets are available and new longer sabots to handle them.

Personally i would like to see a 1-24 only because its different and will be fine with current bullet options. It will also give a good chance for success if newer bullets become available. 1-20 still has a bad rep even if it was only due to flawed advertising and older sabot polymers. If you want to encourage the SML crowd to try Knight 45s, a 1-22 would probably have the best chance.

I think Knight should make 100 .45s with the 1:24 and 100 in the 1:20 and send one to each of us for field testing. I'm sure we could run them through the gauntlet and give them sufficient feedback. What you say Grouse? Want to get that suggestionout to them? We could send you all our addresses.

If I could I would....LOL

We need some 220gr monolithic bullets and some 40-235gr SSTs too. Those should at least still fit available sabots. :p

I would even be kind enough to try them in my 1-22 with BH209. :D

Tom, are you referring to long range shots with a break action? IMHO. if knight builds a break action with a hammer, a solid frame and GMB barrel,quality synthetic stock that isn't a ugly duckling like the vision,sales would be excellent.T/C, and CVA both market break action rifles that are extremely accurate out to 200 yds, with practice and a good bullet choice.

No, I am speaking in generalities.

It is basic firearm knowledge that a bolt action rifle with a solid one piece stock is inherently stronger(thus more accurate) than a rifle with a break action, and a two piece stock. So I was speaking to that point.

IMo if all quality features of two different MZ's are the same. And the only difference is break action versus bolt action. Then I firmly believe the bolt action will be a more accurate rifle every time.

And I do believe this is pretty much common knowledge in the shooting world.

I have several Encore and Contender frames, barrels, and stocks. And I really like them. But I know they are not as inherently accurate as my bolt action rifles. And there are shooting techniques that I must use for my break actions to shoot more accurately. And I do not need to concern myself with those techniques when shooting a bolt action rifle.

So overall the bolt is definitely a more accurate design. Tom.

Ray, didnt Knight already make the break action you are describing here? What about the KP1? It had a good solid frame, external hammer, Green Mountain barrel, and a pretty good synthetic stock that was better than most of the synthetic T/C stocks IMO. The wood stocks were pretty nice as well.

You dont hear much about the KP1 on this forum. That, and the fact the rifle was discontinued tells me it just didnt take off. Not a popular rifle and I dont understand why?

The KP1 should be back in 2012 machined instead of casting. I'm not familiar with the gun but got one on the way.

The strength and accuracy of a good break open action muzzleloader far exceeds the load you can put in it. Unless MOA isn't good enough for a hunting gun? It is for me.

Another advantage of a bolt action is being able to chamber another round. A moot point in a ML.

Now, if you're going to spend your life and all your money at the range. A bolt action MIGHT last longer. For the normal hunter. A break action is just fine, and easier to use.

I was referring to a dedicated break action M/L from Knight. if i am not mistaken, the KP1 was a rifle with interchangeable barrels and the quality and looks just wasn't there and at that time knight was marketing a lot poorly designed rifles.the market tells us a well designed accurate break action will indeed sell well.

I suppose bolts are if your a bench rest shooter:eek2: MOA at 100 yds with a break action,is plenty for myself and the vast majority of people in the M/L.

Knight also made the Shadow near the end of the old ownership but it was a flop. Mainly due to cheaper construction and a saturated break action market. It looked a lot like a Traditions Pursuit but without the exposed hammer.

The KP1 didnt really catch on either but not because of poor quality. The break action CF market already had numerous choices. Some much cheaper and some more expensive with WAY more aftermarket support.

Aftermarket support is one of the best indications of a mass production guns popularity. The KP1 was just a bit too late in the game (for Knight) and didnt get enough attention to inspire the aftermarket to support it. Its one heck of a tough gun though and lots of meat around the chamber/powder column. A revised version might be worth some attention when Knight can supply their current demands.

Find a 45/70 barrel model and convert it to a ML with a breachplug. Its the quick path to a improved fast twist 45cal for testing but IIRC its a 1-18. SMI will convert them for under $150 to SML quality with your choice of breach plug.

IMO they were quite nice looking in laminate and the weight was reasonable.

kp1 was also a dirty mofo with primers.

Very true statement. But has absolutely nothing to do with inherent accuracy of the action. Tom.

I'll agree that a bolt action is a very accurate action. I was speaking from a practical decision on what advantage it would have in a ML used for hunting.

You are 100% right about that. Heck my break action rifles are my favorite hunting rifles(except for varminters). I especially like them because they are a good bit shorter. And I believe this to be the best feature for hunting. Tom.

And so are most CVAs according to your own words on this forum and your blog. ;)

But it can be fixed by a modification that can void the warranty according to Dudley. :D

screw it back in if you need warranty work. Easier than trying to get a hold of knight for customer service.

Yeah, im sure that will be just fine if threads are damaged in the frame or bushing. At least one person knows how to do it the right way.

BTW why dont you mention the mod on the cva blog. Maybe i can for you including the link and youtube vid. His response would be most amusing.

Wont damage the threads at all!

Im pretty sure i have posted the link on the CVA blog as well as on the facebook page. Works great and dont ever have to touch it once shes adjusted.

O rings are a pain in the butt to keep replacing, i like a semi permanent fix. The semi part meaning you can always return it back to normal should you choose to do so.

Kinda like drilling out breech plugs for liners you know.

I wouldn't know about drilling them out anymore. Ive never done it for anyone or sold them. I also dont tell people how to cheat a possible warranty issue. All of mine came with removable liners or dont need them. ;)

BTW thanks for the screenshot. :D

CVA has seen both the video and blog post LOL. They like the idea but want an easier way at doing it. Currently being looked into.

Rust/corrosion also void warranty, guess which one of those will happen a lot sooner due to all that primer blow back in the action? Yep, you got it!

I wonder why none of my Knights or GMB54-120 with well over 500 rounds each have NO corrosion in the breach? :barmy:

Oh thats right a bolt action cams forward and creates a good seal with a win209.

Cool, i just want to see how Dudley responds on the blog to a direct question about your mod and how to avoid detection of that mod. ;)

and you had to buy an aftermarket lehigh product to do that. Knights with the jackets are still dirty.

The mod causes zero problems. Heck i even have a very quick fix for the Apex head space adjustment! Its a bit of a pain and still in the works however.

I think GM is showing his true colors right now. You just posted how you will easily turn on someone and stab them in the back when you want to play dirty. I know who you group with are just the same way as you, they stick out like a sore thumb after being hit with a 10lb hammer.

So about your breech plugs all having removable liners. I take it you only shoot savage ml as they hold the patent on that design?

I didn't get any blowback with the CVA BH BP. FP housing is screwed all the way in.

Speaking of blowback. Hi GM. :poke:

Muley, you most likely will once you increase your charge and bullet weight. Those 177gr round balls and the 60gr bh209 charge just arent blowing the primers back into the frame yet.

Stop picking on my fun load. When you think about it. 60gr of BH is about like 75gr of Goex 2F. That will kill a deer under 75 yds.

Not that i'd try it. Just saying.

But its verrrry tempting to try! LOL

If i can get those REALs to shoot good in the Optima i may use them next year on the elk hunt. That'd be fun to see how those 320 grainers do.

Might as well shoot rocks. Use a Thor.

true but its just cool to see something you've made, in action. Maybe save the REAL for a backyard hunt when that day comes.

A 320 grain REAL is a long way from shooting rocks. I suspect a 279 grain round ball from a .58 would be good elk medicine. If so, why not a 320 grain REAL?

And you guys try to give me and grouse ****, for a heated discussion. Oh that's right its MD/FG and his CVA it makes it alright.