A rifle gave me the fits today
 

How many of you.. after shooting a rifle on the target range say to yourself, this rifle is ready to hunt. I know I do. And today I was sure I was shooting one such rifle.

I had purchased some Pyrodex Pellets at Gander Mountain the other day. $24.00 for the 50 grain ones. I knew my Genesis liked pellets. And I was so sure of it.. I marched the target back to 100 yards (range finder) and loaded two pellets and a 250 grain Barnes MZ Expander. This rifles favorite load.

I swabbed between shots like normal, and shot four shots into a nice two inch group. Sounds good right? Well not when the group was six inches high over the bull. So I checked the mounts... tight. I looked the rifle over. All seemed in order.

I knew I had not bumped the scope. So I took it off and then put it back on. Quick release rings and all. Shot two more.. nice and tight, but even higher then the first group. Now I was stunned.

So the cap said.. 1/4 inch at 100 yards (Nikon Omega). Being six inches high, that would be 24 clicks... right? Wrong!! The next group was seven inch low, under the bull. So I settled for 12 clicks back up, and still low.

I am now suspecting the scope. But I mean.. this is a Nikon Omega. Well I ran out of Barnes so I got some XTP's and MPH -12 sabots. Loaded 100 grains and shot. Now its hitting three inches low.

Instead of making more adjustments and shooting more pellets and projectiles... I declared myself incompetent. I called it a day. Took the rifle into the house and took every part of it possible apart. I scrubbed each part spotless and put it back together.

I could not stand it any longer...

Now this rifle just last week at 51 yards shot a heck of a group. So I marched the NEW target out to 50 yards (range finder).. If its three inches low at 100 yards, I had no idea what to expect..

Fired a nice tight group and it was 3 inches low 6 o'clock under the bull. The same as it would have been at 100 yards. I decided to quit for the day because a tree was looking real good for a wrap job. I am going to throw a new scope on this thing and see what happens... BUT I really do trust the scope.

Could it have just been one of those days?

I've never had faith in 6" low, so i'll move it 24 clicks. I just move a few clicks..shoot...few clicks..shoot until it's where I want it.

Everything points to you moving it down too far, and then never moving it back up.

Sometimes they can drive you crazy. Now on the other hand, if you wouldn't have taken it out you would have been wondering how on earth you missed that deer at 75 yds?

Why it was that high in the first place the the first puzzle. But just the way it acted today, I mean the ignition was fine, I even felt that the aim and follow through was excellent. The groups kind of reflected that the aim and follow through was good. Just the difference in height was the real shocker.

I am going to try some Scorpions in it in the very near future.

for what it's worth did you happen to check the small screws on the turrets on your scope to see if they were loose?i had a nikon monarch a couple years back on a mz that was doing as your mz was doing today, an after i tighten those suckers up all was right again......hope this helps, but you probably already checked that.

No I did not. But I will. Thanks for the tip.

Dave - I'm just wondering about reassembly it there was something you did different. But as I recall there is not too much to the disassembly/assembly of a Genesis that could change the POI that much, if at all. The only thing I can think of is that the forearm may be applying pressure in a different spot? Maybe its just he weather change or - it could be that new lot of pellets?

Dave, I ran into a similar problem and when I finally pinned it down it was a different lot of sabots that was slightly thicker, now I mic each lot and buy them in lots of 500 and check the lot number through out the lot before I store them.

The sabots were the same for the Barnes as they are factory included. The only thing that might have been different was the swab liquid. I used Simple Green and before it was probably Rusty Duck Black Off.

Do any of your other rifles like the Pyrodex Pellets? If so, try them in one of your other rifles. Maybe the pellets are bad or otherwise different. Afterall, it is a new lot.

I have considered exactly doing that. It very well might be the pellets.

If you reead my post in the general guns had a similar issue with a nikon prostaff on my tikka .243 there 1/4 clicks are doo doo and I have changed to scope rings and bases with a scope that I know drives tacks, if it isn't the scope i will know then i have a rifle issue

I also suspect the pellets and/or the sabots. I have seen different point of impact when shooting in cold weather, after sighting in during warm weather.

Don't worry about the clicks on your scope being an actual "1-click = 1/4 MOA." I don't think most scopes in that price range have super accurate adjustment steps. I know my Leupold Ultimate Slam, which in all other ways I LOVE, sucks when it comes to sighting in. For my next scope I am definitely going to consider the Weaver scopes with the Micro-Trac adjustment system, which may be an exception to the rule where price range and adjustment accuracy are concerned.

How do your QR rings attach? Do they attach to a picatinny mount? I have QR rings for my Aimpoint sight on my M1A. I find that when the lever is in the open position and the sight is resting on the mount (i.e. in position, ready to be locked down), there is a small amount of play back and forth (muzzle to breech). If you find the same with yours, you will want to push the scope forward as you lock the levers down, as that is the direction the scope would move under recoil. It has a definite impact on POI for me if I don't do that.

double post

I checked over the scope last night and all seemed in order. Also the Quick release rings seem to fit nice and tight. I am going to shoot the rifle as soon as it stops raining here, and see what it will do. I will sight it in at 50 yards and then see what the drop is at 100. Maybe just go from there.

The QR is nice and tight before you throw the lever to lock it down?

That Genesis was causing me sleepless moments where I would lay there and think about what could be the problem. Was it the scope? The new pellets? Sabots? Maybe the way I was swabbing? And I was itching to get back out to 100 yards and shoot that thing again.

Today there was a very light drizzle. And at times it would stop. When I was taking my morning walk, I kept saying.. this drizzle is nothing. If I can walk in it, I can shoot in it. Saw some real nice deer sign on the walk too. But all the tracks lead to my yard. I have an area of new grass planted and they are in there eating that at night. Anyway back to the Genesis.

So I decided to brave the drizzle, slight wind and cold temperatures and shoot. I got all set to go out and then read my Genesis file. Crushed Rib sabots not the HPH-12 was a factor. Black powder VS Pyrodex Pellets was a good worker. So I took out a pound of Schuetzen 2f Black Powder, Winchester W209 primers, 300 grain .452 XTPs and some Harvester Crushed Rib sabots.

The picture above shows the first group at 98 yards actually. A little low (from all my monkey business the other day) and to the right. The first group was 2 plus inches but there are several shots in that group. And the first three were almost a clover leaf. I was so relieved to see the group, I just kept shooting, waiting for dooms day to hit again.

I then went two clicks to the left and two clicks up to see how far the group would move. And the adjusted group did show a little movement. I was going to move up a little more but instead decided to see if I could slip a shot. So I wanted to shoot one shot just above the bull. Well it did that fine. And since I will never shoot out to 100 yards, I decided leave well enough alone (and get a good nights sleep). Funny how a rifle can bug me like that.

So was it the power or the sabots? I suspect.. the sabots. Next time out I am going to try pellets again, and if they don't work I will swear off them for life. But the rifle is ready to hunt again...

I'd be willing to bet it's the scope. Because it's a good scope doesn't mean diddly. I have a Leupold VariX II I used for several years. I just sighted it in the day before. 2" high at 100 yards (7mm Rem Mag). I shot at a nice buck off the rest at 224 yds. I knew I hit him but he was staggering away. I shot a couple more times. I went looking and found no blood but I knew I hit him. A couple hrs later a few of us went tracking. The wife spotted him. He'd get up and fall. Turns out I had shot his front legs. We finished him off. I went right to the range at the club. No way I could have pulled it that much and missed the other shots. That scope was way off. I resighted it.Day or two later I got another easy shot and missed him. Back to the range and the scope was way off again. I sent it to Leupold and they supposedly corrected it.I mounted it on another rifle and haven't fired it since. That's why I say I'll be willing to bet it's the scope. In all my years of hunting and shooting that was the first scope I ever had go bad. I'd suggest sending it back to Nikon.

And that 1/4" per click at 100 yards. I've never had a scope that was as they say. I make a few clicks and shoot it.

Well I am going to shoot it again in the very near future and see if it is still on target. But your advice is well heeded. I will watch out for it.

Been there!
 

I had a TC that drove me crazy. Basically, I could not get reliable ignition. New primers, new powder no help. Sent it back to TC with a description of what I was using (Triple 7). They ignored it and sent it back saying that they had shot it (with black powder) and it was fine. I changed to Shockey powder, changed primers again and changed sabots to a thinner and easier to load type. Same problem!

I had had a very knowledgeable friend load and fire it. Same problem. Changed nipples. We could still not determine why it would fire sometimes and not others.

Sent it back again. No help, I am at a lose. I will not hunt with it as, I cannot be sure it will work. I think that I will take it to a gunsmith. What else is left?

You are right. It keeps you up at night wondering what you could have missed.

Big Bullets
That is very frustrating I am sure. So your primer is going off but it is not igniting the powder. Which model T/C is it? I have never heard of anything quite like that. Good Luck figuring out what is wrong there.

Dave, I'm glad you got out and shot that rifle again. But from the prior adjustment you made, it looks as though the scope is fine. I have a funny feeling it had something to do with your load combo. Either the pellets, sabot or whatever. But at least its hitting good.
I know I hate it when I get a rifle or put a new scope on and don't get to shoot it for some time. It bugs me when a rifle is not sighted in.

A good friend's son purchased a CVA St. Louis Hawkins and had the same ignition problems you described. They left it with me to work over. As long as I shot black powder it shot fine. Once I went to anything else, it started to act up. I suspect the drum is too narrow or something.. but he's got a pound of my black powder now and is happy.

Bronko.. it takes a gun nut to understand just how much that rifle bothered me. I bet I checked that rifle over a dozen times after it acted up. But the way it shot today was like old times. So I was kind of happy today.

That is strange. I'd try using the pellets but put a few grains of BP in first then the pellets. See if that corrects the problem. Sounds to me you're not getting enough iginition for some reason. I know you shouldn't have to do that but that might be a solution until you figure out what the deal is.


The Triumph I mentioned in the OP was a replacement from T/C. The first one the night I bought it the open action lever snapped off. Back to T/C. I get it back the hammer wouldn't come back. Back for the second time. The tech apologized and sent me a T/C cap. I take it to the range and this time it wouldn't even snap a primer. Some bushing wasn't installed correctly they said. 3 trips back to T/C before the first shot was fired. I got it back two days before our season started.Opening morning we are at the range sighting it in. I did get T/C to pay the shipping for all the trips back and forth. Finally got the first shot off ,the front fiber optic broke off. I contacted the service manager again. Very nice lady. She asked if we could use it the way it was to finish the season out and then she would exchange it. The wife shot a nice doe with it. I hate to say this I don't put allot of trust in T/C's service dept.

It is the Black Mountain Magnum. The primer would fire but not the main charge.

That's designed to use the musket caps. Is that what you're using?

I shot real black powder at first. Actually, I cannot remember whether the problem started after I switched to Triple Seven (and then to Shockey). I switched because it was too much of a hassle to clean with soap & water. It also went again the grain to use water on a rifle. I also have an Austin & Halleck in-line. It stays far cleaner with the Shockey. It is therefore easier to load.

Maybe I will try the real stuff again just to see what happens.

Yes. the 11s do not fit. I was hoping to find a nipple which would let me use bigger primers.

Real BP, T7, and Shockey's all clean up with water and soap. I don't understand why you don't want to use BP? Water will not hurt your barrel as long as you keep it lubed after cleaning. Most all sidelocks are cleaned with water.

Another option is Pyrodex P. It ignites easier than T7. I wouldn't shoot Shockey's if you paid me, so I have no advice for that crap.

I'll ask again. Are you using musket caps? If not, and you're using #11 caps. The Remington caps are hotter than some of the others, but your gun is suppose to use musket caps. I'd use those.

You'd have to change to an #11 nipple to use #11 caps, but don't bother. The musket caps are better.

As a follow up to my above post. Are you sure you're getting the breech channel clean? Are you hitting the barrel to get the powder flowing into it. Nipple nice and clean?

Nothing cleans better than pumping soap and water through the barrel. How do you clean?

Quite a few years ago, I bought a musket nipple and tried musket caps on me T/C Renegade using Pyrodex loose powder. Ignition was completely unrealiable. Sounds a lot like what you are describing.

You also say you are using BP subs and have switched away from cleaning with water? I always clean the renegade with water. First with the nipple in, and then with it out. I use a patch and like others have said, pump water in and out of the breech and nipple. I follow that up with boiling water to really heat the barrel, and normally a bit more fouling breaks loose. Then dry the barrel, then apply a very light coat of oil. Prior to shooting, remove oil with an alcohol patch.

I would try a #11 nipple and the hottest #11 caps you can get. I'll bet the gun will fire just fine with Pyrodex. Remember to compress the Pyrodex well.

I've never tried a musket cap. I assumed they had a hotter flame. I haven't heard they were unreliable. Are all the brands of musket caps unreliable?

I never have a problem with #11 Remington caps.

I disagree. My Nikon Monarch is pretty accurate as is my Burris FFII and they are both in that price range. It's just crappy scopes that don't track right. Every Leupold under $300 I've ever used has tracked horribly, which is one of the several reasons I don't buy them or recommend them anymore.

To some guys it doesn't matter what the adjustments are as they zero them and don't touch them. For others like me, in a lot of cases I like to be able to make adjustments in the field and it definitely matters. It's one of those things where I have had several cheaper scopes that didn't track well and I got by with them, but I much prefer one that is accurate. I've gotten rid of most of the ones that didn't track well, but I still have 2 of them.

That said I had a Prostaff before the Monarchs and while I never did a box test to see if it was repeatable, the adjustments were pretty close to 1/4" if not exact. It tracked fairly well for the $80 I paid for it.

I have a Black Mountain Magnum rifle. It has a musket cap ignition. I have never had a ignition problem with the rifle. I so shoot musket caps. So Big Bullets I am not sure what the problem might be. But that is one rifle that is suppose to shoot any powder, even pellets. So when you say you have an ignition problem with that rifle, I agree.. I would be concerned also.

Seem funny that T/C customer service loaded with black powder and then claimed no ignition problem. If the rifle were mine there is a few things I would try with the rifle to get it shooting, but then... I love to tinker.

I really do not know if I can set a price limit and say... scope under this level will or are more prone to adjustment problems. These cheap Simmons Pro Diamonds 4x32mm are $39.00 and they actually track real good. My Bushnell Banner is again, a cheaper (and I hate that word) scope and it works just fine. But I am keeping an eye on my Nikon Omega. Maybe it was just a bad day I was having. But its funny that the other day it behaved just perfect.

I hate that word too Cayugad. As you know, I'm a real fan of the 4X ProDiamond (have them on five guns) and like to refer to them as "good quality inexpensive scopes".

Even when I made a mistake and thought I was purchasing the Simmons Pro Diamond and instead for the Simmons Pro Sport (for less money)... those are on Knight LK rifles and they are shooting deadly accurate. You'd think the rifle would shake them apart.