|
Got her dialed in
A few weeks back I took my Pro Hunter w/.50 Encore Bergara barrel to the range to get the replacement Bushnell DOA 250 ready for 100yd shooting.
This is the group at 50yds a few weeks back. Barnes 250gr TMZ in a Harvester CR sabot. 105gr by volume BH209  Today I hit the 100yd range. Shooting done with a Bulls bag front rest and Caldwell rear rest. Barrel running HOT!! 72gr by weight BH209 Barnes 250TMZ Yellow Harvester CR sabot CCI209M primer  TC Pro Hunter w/.50 Encore Bergara barrel  I think she's dialed in for the first day of Maryland's early muzzleloader season on Oct. 20th. :biggrin: |
That's some really good shooting.
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Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851342)
A few weeks back I took my Pro Hunter w/.50 Encore Bergara barrel to the range to get the replacement Bushnell DOA 250 ready for 100yd shooting.
I think she's dialed in for the first day of Maryland's early muzzleloader season on Oct. 20th. :biggrin: That really should work - doant ya tink... |
WOW- that's some awesome shooting! I wouldn't touch that combo at all....
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i just noticed something in your first post, where you said 72g of bh209 by weight. I dont know much about blackpowder shooting, last year i got back into it using bh209 in my encore prohunter, and i was using 110 and 120 grains using one of those volume measurers. Am i doing it wrong where bh is concerned? never used weight before
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72gr by weight of BH209 should be in the neighborhood of 105 by volume. Actually according to my volume measuerer its a little more. All the measurer's throw slightly different. I recently got a RCBS Chargemaster 1500 and had to use it.
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Come on, really? We all know only Knights can shoot that good! And anyway, that group is at least 1/2" right of center. Tsk, tsk, tsk. I would have expected better.
OK, I hope you're realizing I was just kidding. Excellent job. Looks like you have zero excuses as far as accuracy goes. |
Originally Posted by bronko22000
(Post 3851371)
Come on, really? We all know only Knights can shoot that good! And anyway, that group is at least 1/2" right of center. Tsk, tsk, tsk..
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Originally Posted by scottycoyote
(Post 3851364)
i just noticed something in your first post, where you said 72g of bh209 by weight. I dont know much about blackpowder shooting, last year i got back into it using bh209 in my encore prohunter, and i was using 110 and 120 grains using one of those volume measurers. Am i doing it wrong where bh is concerned? never used weight before
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Excellent shooting and a beautiful rifle..
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Originally Posted by scottycoyote
(Post 3851364)
i just noticed something in your first post, where you said 72g of bh209 by weight. I dont know much about blackpowder shooting, last year i got back into it using bh209 in my encore prohunter, and i was using 110 and 120 grains using one of those volume measurers. Am i doing it wrong where bh is concerned? never used weight before
http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-conte...loaderdata.pdf |
ok guys thanks, i just didnt want to blow up my encore should i decide to mess with some 150 grain charges. Last year i was shooting 200grain bullet with 120g of bh and it worked really well, 2 inches high at 50, 4high a 100 and minute of deer at 200.
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Wow, that is a really, really great-looking gun! I have never seen an Encore that I liked…but yours rocks! I want one. :)
Oh, and nice shooting too!! |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851390)
Western Powders gives both VOLUME and WEIGHT in their load data. If measuring by volume works for you then do not stop.
http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-conte...loaderdata.pdf |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851390)
Western Powders gives both VOLUME and WEIGHT in their load data. If measuring by volume works for you then do not stop.
http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-conte...loaderdata.pdf |
Originally Posted by scottycoyote
(Post 3851401)
ok guys thanks, i just didnt want to blow up my encore should i decide to mess with some 150 grain charges. Last year i was shooting 200grain bullet with 120g of bh and it worked really well, 2 inches high at 50, 4high a 100 and minute of deer at 200.
Do not follow the instructions from the powder manufacture on your Muzzleloader ever unless they have tested your ML and can provide pressure testing with that powder. I do know Western Powders never did pressure testing in the Encore/Omega to verify what the gun can handle safely. What i mean is, they cant support going above what the gun manufacture recommends. I think your safe with 120grns by volume and a 200grn saboted bullet. Just because i think it, doesn't make it right or safe. The safest way i have found is to follow the manual supplied with the Muzzleloader. They built it, and they understand what it can do. They have shot and tested all the powders whether they list them or not. |
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851611)
I have owned four or five Encores and i believe they are only rated to 100grn by volume with a 200grn saboted bullet. I don't have a manual to verify handy but check yours out. Your Encore manual should also explain volume loading. I would be very surprised if your manual mentions weighing charges.
Do not follow the instructions from the powder manufacture on your Muzzleloader ever unless they have tested your ML and can provide pressure testing with that powder. I do know Western Powders never did pressure testing in the Encore/Omega to verify what the gun can handle safely. What i mean is, they cant support going above what the gun manufacture recommends. I think your safe with 120grns by volume and a 200grn saboted bullet. Just because i think it, doesn't make it right or safe. The safest way i have found is to follow the manual supplied with the Muzzleloader. They built it, and they understand what it can do. They have shot and tested all the powders whether they list them or not. http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...der_Manual.pdf I did not see in the manual that SL posted a week ago for the 2011 Knights specifically give BH209 data. It's funny how when I speak with Don at Western Powders he refers to the Omega plug being their favorite to ignite BH209. Guess he just thinks it just looks pretty. I do not see why everything with you leads to a pissing match? Does it or does it not say in the Western Powder load data what volume charges equal in weight? Why is it a big deal to you other then to make yourself look like the expert you THINK you are? He asked a question and I answered him, he does not need you trying to scare him. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851626)
Page 59 of the manual is load data provided with FFg powder.
http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...der_Manual.pdf I did not see in the manual that SL posted a week ago for the 2011 Knights specifically give BH209 data. It's funny how when I speak with Don at Western Powders he refers to the Omega plug being their favorite to ignite BH209. Guess he just thinks it just looks pretty. I do not see why everything with you leads to a pissing match? Does it or does it not say in the Western Powder load data what volume charges equal in weight? Why is it a big deal to you other then to make yourself look like the expert you THINK you are? He asked a question and I answered him, he does not need you trying to scare him. Follow the recommend volume loads your manual suggests. That's all pretty simple and safe. If telling someone to follow the gun manufacture manual and not the powder company makes me an expert, well i guess i am a expert. Why would you ever argue following a manual????? Did you ever think you might be the expert????? Not sure but you sound like a person that doesn't like to follow rules very well. As far as Muzzleloading, keep it safe clean and simple. |
Great shooting, where did you get the stock and forend ?
|
Grouse – You are thinking in black and white. According to your thought process, no-one should use any powder whatsoever except FFG BP and Pyrodex in an Encore since the manual doesn’t give load data for it. Nothing else but Pyrodex or real BP is acceptable in an Encore. No T7, White Hots, American Pioneer, Goex Pinnacle, and definitely NO BH209. In fact, no BP FG or FFFG, since the manual doesn’t say so. Not to mention your max load for the Encore is way off…at least for the barrel Omega45 has.
No, the manual doesn’t mention weighing charges. And with BP and just about every other BP sub I am aware of, you shouldn’t, due to the fact that it is hydroscopic. BH209 is not hydroscopic. Therefore it can more accurately be weighed than measured by volume. If you find that 115gr BH209 by volume is your most accurate load, you could measure out 115gr by volume as accurately as possible and dump it into your powder scale to find out what its equivalent weight is (I have no idea what that is, let’s say it’s 75gr by weight). You could then weigh 75gr BH209 1,000 times, and never once would it surpass the 115gr mark on your powder measure. Conversely, if you were to measure out 115gr BH209 by volume a 1,000 times and dump it onto your scale, you’d get 1,000 different readings on the scale (to the tenths or hundredths place) because measuring by volume just ain’t as accurate. |
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851699)
I didn't know you said anything wrong???? If you did i did not see it.
Follow the recommend volume loads your manual suggests. That's all pretty simple and safe. If telling someone to follow the gun manufacture manual and not the powder company makes me an expert, well i guess i am a expert. Why would you ever argue following a manual????? Did you ever think you might be the expert????? Not sure but you sound like a person that doesn't like to follow rules very well. As far as Muzzleloading, keep it safe clean and simple. Ohh where are your backers?? Please everyone that agrees with the feathered ones posting here on this subject matter please chime in. I gotta hear what others think of the experts opinion........ |
Originally Posted by bigboomer
(Post 3851714)
Great shooting, where did you get the stock and forend ?
http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet...umbhole/Detail |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851780)
You know what the intention of your posting was. Please go back and govern all other posts where people post powder charges that you THINK were not pressure tested. Sorry I took a little bit of your KNIGHT and LEHIGH advertising away from the board. :wave:
Ohh where are your backers?? Please everyone that agrees with the feathered ones posting here on this subject matter please chime in. I gotta hear what others think of the experts opinion........ |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851626)
I did not see in the manual that SL posted a week ago for the 2011 Knights specifically give BH209 data. It's funny how when I speak with Don at Western Powders he refers to the Omega plug being their favorite to ignite BH209. Guess he just thinks it just looks pretty. I do not see why everything with you leads to a pissing match? Does it or does it not say in the Western Powder load data what volume charges equal in weight? Why is it a big deal to you other then to make yourself look like the expert you THINK you are? He asked a question and I answered him, he does not need you trying to scare him. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851780)
Ohh where are your backers?? Please everyone that agrees with the feathered ones posting here on this subject matter please chime in. I gotta hear what others think of the experts opinion........
NATO's post was actually really close to what I would call correct when it comes to TC products. I personally think Grouse is incorrect when he says: I have owned four or five Encores and i believe they are only rated to 100grn by volume with a 200grn saboted bullet. And all could be solved if you go to your manual... as he also suggested... amd I would add checking with TC if confirmation is needed.  This TC manual page indicates the differently than Grouse remembers. Granted they do not list T7 or BH and even a lot of other different powders. In my converstions with TC tech department on several occasions, and other postings by other trusted forum members, TC continully says that T7 in their rifles is fine with a max loose load of 120 grains. I have never asked them (TC directly) about BH-209 in a TC but by now I know they have tested it and the same 120 grain rule would PROBABLY apply. I know that others have and indicated so. Just my thoughts |
Mike, the point is that Grouse is saying you shouldn't weigh the charges b/c the manual doesn't say so. That's the way a simpleton thinks. He also was providing faulty load max's as it pertains to Steve's barrel, the the max is clearly much higher than the number Grouse just pulled out of his hat. As both Steve and I pointed it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to measure a specific BH209 volume by weight.
In short, Grouse had absolutely nothing positive to contribute to the thread. |
Yes SL your late.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851384)
All black powder and substitutes are measured by volume. There is no safety issues posting by weight because weights are less then by volume. Keep loading by volume, no reason for hunting to load by weight. Just do the same thing all the time when you load.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851489)
It's that easy.:happy0001:
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851611)
I have owned four or five Encores and i believe they are only rated to 100grn by volume with a 200grn saboted bullet. I don't have a manual to verify handy but check yours out. Your Encore manual should also explain volume loading. I would be very surprised if your manual mentions weighing charges.
Do not follow the instructions from the powder manufacture on your Muzzleloader ever unless they have tested your ML and can provide pressure testing with that powder. I do know Western Powders never did pressure testing in the Encore/Omega to verify what the gun can handle safely. What i mean is, they cant support going above what the gun manufacture recommends. I think your safe with 120grns by volume and a 200grn saboted bullet. Just because i think it, doesn't make it right or safe. The safest way i have found is to follow the manual supplied with the Muzzleloader. They built it, and they understand what it can do. They have shot and tested all the powders whether they list them or not.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851699)
I didn't know you said anything wrong???? If you did i did not see it.
Follow the recommend volume loads your manual suggests. That's all pretty simple and safe. If telling someone to follow the gun manufacture manual and not the powder company makes me an expert, well i guess i am a expert. Why would you ever argue following a manual????? Did you ever think you might be the expert????? Not sure but you sound like a person that doesn't like to follow rules very well. As far as Muzzleloading, keep it safe clean and simple.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851810)
Why are you bringing Knight and Lehigh into this thread? Again follow the recommended loads by the gun manufacture period. They don't print those manuals for nothing. You started this thread so you can say all the foolish stuff you want.
Mike, I commend you for trying to help your feathered friend here. His postings are absurd and irrevelent to the topic. BH209 can be measured by weight or by volume. Trying to scare someone shooting a Pro Hunter questioning his load? Since he brought up the pressure testing........the sabot is your savior, it blows first to save you. Just because you do not want to measure it that way its still acceptable. Ever see conversion tables for T7 or Pyrodex to weight? Then he throws up pressure traces or testing......I have talked to Don at Western Powders enough to know his take on things. I am one of the safest shooters out there when it comes to firearms!!! Did you happen to read the Encore manual? I posted a link for you. I try to stay out of your business when you post. I have did a pretty good job keeping my fingers from typing until you opened up a can of worms here. Completely absurb. You need to start your own site like Randy Wakeman. Maybe your groupies will follow you over there. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851837)
Mike,
I commend you for trying to help your feathered friend here. His postings are absurd and irrevelent to the topic. BH209 can be measured by weight or by volume. Trying to scare someone shooting a Pro Hunter questioning his load? Since he brought up the pressure testing........the sabot is your savior, it blows first to save you. Just because you do not want to measure it that way its still acceptable. Ever see conversion tables for T7 or Pyrodex to weight? Then he throws up pressure traces or testing......I have talked to Don at Western Powders enough to know his take on things. I am one of the safest shooters out there when it comes to firearms!!! Personalities and the conflicts that evolve from these forums are sometimes awful, but you in your profession you would certainly no more about that than I... I am not the best content reader in the world but I do not remember him saying your loads were unsafe... I certainly do not and I guarantee you Lee would not think 105 grains of BH in a TC would be dangerous. In my mind he was wrong about the 100 grain limit and he should go back and look at a current manual. Although it is possible that in the old days TC followed Hodgdon's 100 grain recommendations - so he might have read that along time ago. And I would agree from what I know about you and your training - safety would always come first. Did you happen to read the Encore manual? I posted a link for you. I try to stay out of your business when you post. I have did a pretty good job keeping my fingers from typing until you opened up a can of worms here. Completely absurb. You need to start your own site like Randy Wakeman. Maybe your groupies will follow you over there. I can not imagine you could lead many of these guys anywhere... in my mind they are like farmers... prioud, independent, and able to make their own decisions. I would also think on a open forum you would expect to get the good with the bad - something again I think you deal with everyday. |
I should stay clear of this but I do have one comment. I was trying to figure out why Grouse seems to get into these pi$$ing matches one right after another.
I think it is comments like this "Not sure but you sound like a person that doesn't like to follow rules very well." Now I'm not sure how posting personal comments like that can possibly add to a healthy discussion. What were we saying a while back about staying positive??? |
Originally Posted by flounder33
(Post 3851848)
I should stay clear of this but I do have one comment. I was trying to figure out why Grouse seems to get into these pi$$ing matches one right after another.
I think it is comments like this "Not sure but you sound like a person that doesn't like to follow rules very well." Now I'm not sure how posting personal comments like that can possibly add to a healthy discussion. What were we saying a while back about staying positive??? |
O45
Here is a page from the current TC ProHunter manual on line... I think it shows that what Grouse incated with the "I believe" is incorrect  |
Since I was perceived as taking a side on a recent pi$$ing match on this board, I might as well butt in here. Why not, I’m bored.
Most anyone that has been involved with MLs for a small amount of time fully realizes that T/C’s manuals are grossly out of date, erring on the side of less liability, particularly for the older models such as Encore and Omega. So what happens when someone new to MLs is advised that he should disregard a powder maker’s recommendations in favor of the ML manufacturer’s manual when considering powder loads? Well, say the newbie goes and takes a look at T/C’s manual. OMG!! T/C does not mention Triple 7 or BH209!! That must mean they are both unsafe!! I think one of the points made by NATO is dead on, namely, that it’s perhaps a little disingenuous suggest to consulting the T/C manual when considering BH209 loads, whether by volume or weight. |
Originally Posted by hubby11
(Post 3851871)
Since I was perceived as taking a side on a recent pi$$ing match on this board, I might as well butt in here. Why not, I’m bored.
I really do not think you were the cause of anything... you asked a question got a legit answer from the forum. So none of the happenings in the match are your doing.... I think it truly is a personality thing which is none of your doings. Most anyone that has been involved with MLs for a small amount of time fully realizes that T/C’s manuals are grossly out of date, erring on the side of less liability, particularly for the older models such as Encore and Omega. So what happens when someone new to MLs is advised that he should disregard a powder maker’s recommendations in favor of the ML manufacturer’s manual when considering powder loads? Well, say the newbie goes and takes a look at T/C’s manual. OMG!! T/C does not mention Triple 7 or BH209!! That must mean they are both unsafe!! It is unfortunate that not all manuals are as complete as we would like them. Following a powder manufacture's recommendation is always prudent if the manual does not provide you the information that you need. If at anytime you have a question about your or any specific ML or even rifle - i would think it would be prudent to call the rifle manufacture also and confirm what you might need to know. I think one of the points made by NATO is dead on, namely, that it’s perhaps a little disingenuous suggest to consulting the T/C manual when considering BH209 loads, whether by volume or weight. |
Originally Posted by sabotloader
(Post 3851846)
I honestly thought he said exactly that... it can be either way. And I say it is not necessary to weigh BH, which it isn't. It was engineered to be thrown into a volume measure. Will your loads be more consistent weighed? certainly but for hunting - really not necessary.
I am not sure that he was trying to scare anybody - maybe save the new guy a little money as a beginning shooter and let him work his way up to the more advanced techniques. Personalities and the conflicts that evolve from these forums are sometimes awful, but you in your profession you would certainly no more about that than I... I am not the best content reader in the world but I do not remember him saying your loads were unsafe... I certainly do not and I guarantee you Lee would not think 105 grains of BH in a TC would be dangerous. In my mind he was wrong about the 100 grain limit and he should go back and look at a current manual. Although it is possible that in the old days TC followed Hodgdon's 100 grain recommendations - so he might have read that along time ago. And I would agree from what I know about you and your training - safety would always come first. I did - in fact it is on another tab right now, but the differences between the the Pro Hunter and Omega is so slight not worth mentioning. I do not know why you would do that... differnt opinions can be healthy as long as they are not conflicts. Sorry! I did not mean to tread on your site or your thread - guess I was mistaken as I thought this was an open board and an open forum. Did not know I had a groupie - i always assumed people on here were open minded independent thinkers. I can not imagine you could lead many of these guys anywhere... in my mind they are like farmers... prioud, independent, and able to make their own decisions. I would also think on a open forum you would expect to get the good with the bad - something again I think you deal with everyday. |
This is from the FAQ's page of Blackhorn 209.
Question: Can I weigh my charges? Answer: Yes. If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. I posted facts when I answered the question. Grouse posted what he thought then went on to scrutinize loads in a TC Pro Hunter. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851894)
This is from the FAQ's page of Blackhorn 209.
Question: Can I weigh my charges? Answer: Yes. If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. I posted facts when I answered the question. Grouse posted what he thought then went on to scrutinize loads in a TC Pro Hunter. I supplied a couple other links as well. BTW- Dave is with Western Powders today, any info you want me to get for you should be know problem. Read your manual, and follow the load information. And also keep it safe clean and simple.:biggrin: |
Originally Posted by sabotloader
(Post 3851859)
O45
Here is a page from the current TC ProHunter manual on line... I think it shows that what Grouse incated with the "I believe" is incorrect I have owned four or five Encores and i believe they are only rated to 100grn by volume with a 200grn saboted bullet. I don't have a manual to verify handy but check yours out. Your Encore manual should also explain volume loading. I would be very surprised if your manual mentions weighing charges. As you read above i clearly say i believe. Secondly i say i don't have a manual to check yours. What that means is, I dont obviously know for sure. You have spent a lot of time pointing this out already. I hope you know your wasting your time. These guy's are going to make it out to be whatever they want. It's like the email said, its only three or four guy's. It's really sad it's about reading a manual and weighing powder. |
Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3851894)
This is from the FAQ's page of Blackhorn 209.
Question: Can I weigh my charges? Answer: Yes. If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. I posted facts when I answered the question. Grouse posted what he thought then went on to scrutinize loads in a TC Pro Hunter. |
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851977)
:lmao: Do you guys realize that T/C, Knight, and Savage view these boards? I'm not sure about CVA. I got an email from T/C tonight which i'm begging him to allow me to post on here. He mentioned three posters on this forum, and you know who you are. What you guys claim i say and the writing is here and on other post's not even edited.:biggrin:
I supplied a couple other links as well. BTW- Dave is with Western Powders today, any info you want me to get for you should be know problem. Read your manual, and follow the load information. And also keep it safe clean and simple.:biggrin: I can call or email Don at Western Powders for all the info I need.
Originally Posted by Grouse45
(Post 3851384)
All black powder and substitutes are measured by volume.
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Originally Posted by Omega45
(Post 3852009)
I hope they are on here to see all your silly posts!! I paid for my guns and barrels, I hope they are happy I purchesed them.
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