I have some T/C's that are a Knight equivelant
 

I was thinking that a Knight sidelock would sure be cool, but I know it will never be a possibilty , seeing Knight has always been an inline company and pioneer of inlines.Then i thought about the fact that all Knights have Green Mountain barrels. well I have sidelocks with Green Mountain barrels, so my T/C hawken with the sharpshooter barrel 1:24 twist is a Knight equivelant. Right??? Just a thought. Do you think the barrel makes the biggest difference or a combination of all components and how they work together. Just curious as to your thoughts. With so much talk about putting the CVA Bergara barrels on a T/C then what about a Green Mountain barrel on a T/C . Are we basically turning our guns into a CVA or Knight gun??

Since the barrel isn't the only component of a gun, even though a very important one I would say no you are not turning your gun into another brand by putting on a different barrel. Think about if you put like a custom barrel from Pac-nor for example, you wouldn't say yeah I have a Pac-nor gun. You would say I have a T/C, savage, etc. with a Pac-nor barrel on it.

While Knight might use Green Mountain Barrels, I don't think putting a GMB on a T/C makes it a Knight. Anymore so then putting a Bergera barrel on a Encore makes it a CVA. All you've done is added custom parts. It the rifle shoots well, its because the parts you have assembled are working in harmony. Also never forget, I can give a perfect rifle to one person who will shoot the bulls eye out at 100 yards, and a different person with the same rifle might only make a 4 inch group.

lol...I'm going with its a combination of all components. but all things being equal on a bench I'd go with the barrel(most important) its a rifled pipe with a breach plug and a nipple but then again if you can't see good the barrel don't matter...maybe its not the green mountian barrels its the sights......lol

now you you know you might have a point... I call my conversions RenGiM's - but they are still a TC in my mind...

I have a bunch of TC Renegades which I THINK are one of the best sidelocks ever made... especially early when they came with barrels made by other manufactures, but even when TC started making their own barrels they were really good.

At some point TC changed methods of barrel production and added the QLA's... I do not have any sidelocks with a QLA.

Like you though i did reach out and get some GM-LRH barrels for the Renegades. I ended up with 3 of these barrels on various TC products. These fast twist barrels allowed me to shoot the conicals that Idaho required for ML hunting... not just any conical but the big long Bull Shop conicals...

This is my favorite one - but it is in a Hawken stock in this picture and labeled as my "Idaho White" for good reasons...



This the same barrel in a Renegade stock... this is what I would use today if I was still required to use a non-inline (we were for awhile)

how much subcontracting does cva/tc/knight do?...I don't know who makes what lol....I wonder how many knights go back on the 4 inch group at 200 yards I know I wouldn't send one back...

Perfect example:

Green Mountain Limited Edition 54-120 Brush Gun.
Green Mountain barreled patented Knight Disc Extreme action.
Knight had nothing to do with them as Green Mountain made them while Knight was closed.
So in actuality it is just a Knight DISC Extreme with a short barrel IMO but I give credit to Green Mountain since they made it.

TC Pro Hunters with Encore Bergara barrels. I say Pro Hunter but the barrel is a very important part and I give credit to the barrel when mentioning it. My .45 Encore Bergara barrel does shoot tighter groups then the factory TC .45 barrel I had.
:confused0024:

I hold more towards the barrel, beings it is where your accuracy comes to play, for the most part.... So I guess, I look at it completely different... Beings Knight is just an assembler of MLers.... (they have every piece contracted out and then assembles them) So in my eyes it is a green mountain not a knight.... So, no gun with a green mountain barrel is a knight but, every knight is a green mountain....

So, in my thought there is nothing like a Knight, they are the only company I know, that contracts out 100% of there line and still calls themselves a manufacturer..

Aren't the people that bought out Knight a plastics manufacturer???

Correction: Every new Knight has a green mountain barrel. My three Knight's are pre GM. Some of the barrels on Knights in the latter years they were making extremes (I don't mean the current company) had some really badly done crowns. I know sabotloader redid his and so did some others. Why t/c couldn't spend a little extra and get their qla centered on the bore is another mystery to me. Too much haste in production.

I stand corrected but was referring to the new line up... I agree 100% about the qla, I don't shoot conicals so it really doesn't matter to me...I may try them just to see how bad mine is... but for sabots and bullets, I love the qla....

I have not held one of the new Knights in my hands but, from what I have been reading on these forums, it sounds like they really tightened up their tolerances. It sounds like they are demanding better machining from their vendors.
To me it doesn't matter if they contract out a lot or all of their parts as long as they are made right. I know White rifles also had a lot of their parts and barrels made. The important thing to me is that it is all done right. The closer the tolerances are in all the parts and in the barrel to stock fit the more accurate the rifle ought to be in my opinion.
Art

Them Whites are still exceptional guns today also and talk about accuracy...

Underclocked posted this 200 yard group with a White and caps... the best part most all Whites would do this day in and day out... and I have to throw this in.... I think history shows that Doc White use to work with Tony Knight back in the MK daze... This incorrect... Art remembers the right information hoping he will post a correction...

whooowheee dat iz a gud shoooter, mazbe sumun shouldz say i trust white and youz shouldz two...2 hunert and twenntee yardz unda two inch.... and with a funky crowne clerke barrel and a plunger action...

We use to all the time - it is just to bad Doc could not compete with the foreign markets and still offer the quality that he would not compromise... forced him to sell and retire...

Knight had won this for many years at Manufactures shooting championships... but a few years ago Doc's team really stumped them - out shot them something terrible...

This was the 2006 White team....

You have got to be kidding, right?

Doc is not just a name, Doc is a DOCTOR, a surgeon to be exact. He actually designed the Super-91 back in the 60's. David "Gumby" Gumucio (G-Series rifle), White Muzzleloading Systems CEO (early to mid 90's), used to work for Tony Knight.




Again, you have got to be kidding? Knight suing Doc White, which Doc won by the way, is what caused him to sell. Knight had more money to spend on Lawyers, even though they lost the (battle) lawsuit , they actually won the war (survival). Retire? Doc is a surgeon, and was still practicing just a couple years ago, and still may be today.

WOW! You sure had a different history teacher than I did!

badbowbender2

Sorry, i was going from memory a long time ago... i new there was a Knight connection and I thought Doc was it but flounder corrected my mistake. i have often talked to Doc on the phone with a of questions about Whites. I never addressed the work history or the claims that Knight made about infringements on Knight's designs - I was incorrect and if you look at the post went back and said i was incorrect. We did talk about his selling Knight but he indicated that he could not afford to keep the company and compete... He was also using foreign imports in the discussion.

was just wandering, what buried this thread so quick??? I was hoping to get more input on everyones opinion to chet original post, not the white posts....

Threads are like mold and mildew. They grow in any direction they can and die for no discernible reason.

Amen Brother

IMO alot of the above statements take into account the short sightedness of alot of today's shooters(or should I say hunters).

Alot of guys on the internet think that the most important part of a rifle is accuracy off the bench. Or how tight of a little group I can shoot from a benchrest. When in actuality benchrest groups have absolutely nothing to do with shooting in hunting conditions.

Too many guys think that just because they have a firearm that shoots itty bitty groups off the bench that it must be the best choice for a hunting rifle. And actually nothing could be farther from the truth.

There are several factors that are important features to make a rifle a quality hunting rifle.

And yes the barrel is one of those qualities. However it is only one. Just as the accuracy of the rifle is only one factor.

You all have been talking about 200 yard groups lately. When in reality that group has ZERO to do with hunting.

The best rifle is a quality rifle that a person has pride in ownership. And a rifle that allows that person to shoot his or her best in FIELD conditions. This is where a proper stock, and a good trigger, and good balance, and other features come into play.

I think it is short sighted of hunters to concern themselves with itty bitty internet groups. Show me a group at 150 yards under hunting conditions. That is what it is really all about. And that is where they separate the men from the boys in a quality firearm, and most of all the shooter. Tom.

HEAD0001

As one guy said in a recent post "AMEN"

I agree Tom, most of my shots are under 35 yds... and if i do hunt a crp field, under a 100.... so 200 yd groups mean nothing to me.... and i know that most hunters can not make a 200 yd. shot for the reason not many have had the situation to practice those distances... and to think you can buy a MLer and put a ballistic scope on it and make those shots at will, without practice is just not reality....but, this is really where a trigger will come into play... a 5lb. trigger is going to kill you at that distance.

Amen x3 Tom, which is why i zero rifles on a bench then practice with shooting sticks and lying down and shooting off my pack.

Actually I think a good trigger and proper fit of a rifle is more important at the shorter distances that you are talking about. I have hunted in deep woods all my life. And many times I was offered a 40 or 50 yard shot at a nice buck. But these shots have to be pin point shots. You have to pick out the branches and the leaves, and shoot just to the left of a large tree trunk. Or just under a large branch of an oak tree.

When you bring that rifle to your shoulder the scope picture has to be right there in front of you. And you need 100% confidence to make those shots.

So I actually think that pin point accuracy is more important at a woods shot at 50 yards, over a field shot at 150 yards. Heck at a 150 yard field shot I have a 10"X10" target. I have seen many shots in the woods where I only had an inch or two to spare. And it was the ability of the hunter in concert with his firearm that took home the venison.

So I honestly don't buy into the "I only shoot 25 or 50 yards theory". I think quality of a firearm is more important under stressful woods conditions, than it is under wide open field conditions. Tom.

I agree.... The close shots are harder for me as well, Especially here in PA. A good trigger and proper fit is huge. I think good mounts and optics are important as well.

i guess we will have to disagree on this one....my point would be a small pull from a heavy trigger at 50 yards might be 2" but out at 200yds it could be 20"... i guess i am lucky enough to not hunt as thick a woods as you describe... that and i would wait for a better shot or not took it at all.... and i can honestly say i have taken at least 5 deer a year for the last 15, from the same stand set-up

For me, knowing I can shoot small 100 yard groups from the bench with a particular rifle and load is a big confidence booster in the field.

For sure,
Practicle accuracy and mechanical accuracy are two differant animals.

Features that a good qualtiy woods or field rifle needs:
1. Good Trigger
2. Good fit
3. Good mounts
4. Good optics
5. Accuracy.......................................And the list goes on.

And this makes my main point that the itty bitty bench group is just one of many factors. Shoot that group inthe field and lets look at it then.

I would bet any shooter on this forum would shoot a rifle better if it had a good stock, with a good trigger and a nice scope, and mounts. I am not sure how any one can argue against that?? Tom.

They will argue about anything.

me too, and i know my gun will cloverleaf at 50yds.. so deer or paper, i have never had a problem... i lost the deer jitters 20 years ago...

That is not what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say was that off of sandbags I can control a bad trigger. And I can shoot a good group with a bad trigger. But I can't shoot a good group in the field with that same bad trigger.

So I am saying that a bad trigger is not as much of a detriment to shoot itty bitty groups from the bench. But a bad trigger is a real detriment in field conditions. Tom.

Okay, i understand now... I didn't catch that i guess because i seldom shoot targets from a bench (unless it is a new scope, i am setting) I dont have one in my treesatnd so, why would i pratice from one...

i agree, if you want to shoot a rifle with a horrible trigger, shoot a Mosin Nagant. I've tamed mine down with shims but there is a ton of creep and its still around 7-8lbs.

It shoots amazing though even with that springy/heavy trigger.

I agree with that statement 100%. But you know deep down that bench accuracy is not field accuracy. It will build field confidence. But bench accuracy is no panacea for a real world hunting condition.

IMO good bench accuracy is just a given in a good quality rifle. Kind of like gasoline in the tank of your truck. You can be the best driver in the world, but you are going nowhere without gas. I consider rifle accuracy as the gas in the tank. Tom.

You are lucky to be in tree stand many of my shots are off-hand from the ground or trying to find a tree trunk to get against or even a stump to use...

Remember a trigger doesnt make the rifle's accuracy better,
it makes the shooter better!!!

Who the heck is they? smart mouth? i agreed with Tom. give it a rest will yah!!!

Off hand is very difficult for me. I would say I'm below average.