Powder Question
 

There is always a lot of debate and opinion over which powder is best. We have a lot of reasons why one powder is better in our opinion then another. So I wanted to explore this.

Cleaning of the powder after shooting
Cost per pound of the powder
Performance of the powder IE; feet per second the powder can produce, consistency of shot to shot, second shot loading .. etc
Swabbing between shots
Crud ring and hardness of fouling
Accuracy
Corrosion concerns

So tell me the powder you use. And what influenced you to select that powder over all others out there on the market. Also if you can remember, what other powders have you tried and decided they were not for you, and why.

My powder is Goex. Good ignition, accuracy is consistant, and the price is right. (I buy in bulk) As far as clean up, All powders leave a residue, and I like to give my ML's a water bath before putting away. I am very fussy about cleaning, and if I have to take a little extra time to disassemble my ML to do this, it's worth it to me. Actually I enjoy it. All powders are corrosive, some more than others, so clean up afterwards is a must, no matter what powder. In the past I have tried Pyrodex, APP, Pinnacle, Clearshot, and 777. I have not used BH209.

Lordy, here we go... :)

I'm guessing at least 10 pages... :)

I use real black powder Goex to be specific...I started using muzzleloaders before the others were a gleam in the chemist's eye...

I have tried Pyrodex and 777 in my Knight, Pryodex because I bought it for $7 a pound and 777 because I wanted to try it...The crud ring on 777 was too much for me to deal with and frankly I didn't find either it or Pyrodex any cleaner or easier to clean than FFF Goex...

Goex is cheaper and easy for me to get because there is a distributor just west of Winston so I buy direct...

I have to have Goex around for my .40 and .54 flinter...With 80grs of Goex FFF in my Knight I can sight in 2 1/2 high at 100 yards and be about 2 1/2 low at 150 so it shoots plenty flat for deer hunting out to 150 which is where most of my deer are killed anyway...

Goex is very easy to clean, plug the vent, pour a few ounces of water down the barrel and you just poured out most of your crud...Dry with patches, repeat and oil the bore...

So, it's cheaper, easy to clean has plenty of power for most hunting situations and as accurate as any powder we have...As far as corrosion, no problem if you know how to clean properly...In addition, as long as you store it in a cool, dry place it has indefinate shelf life...

I really don't understand why anything else was even invented, much less sold at the ridiculous prices some of this stuff brings... :) :) :)

My main powder that I shoot is black powder. It could be Goex, Graf's & Sons or Swiss. I will not shoot Elephant Black Powder. I shoot that in almost 90% of my shooting. You all understand, I shoot a lot of powder off in a year, in a lot of rifles, so I do use different powders from time to time.

Why Black Powder...


#1 cost effective. Bought in bulk it is one of the cheapest to shoot, with Pyrodex RS being a close second.

#2 Accuracy with black powder is outstanding most of the time. When I get a rifle that will not behave, the first powder I grab off the shelf is 2f black powder. If I can not get the rifle to shoot with that, I know I am going to have a problem.

#3 very consistent on the range shot to shot.

#4 Swabbing.. its easy to swab and in traditional rifles I can shot sometimes 20 shots without swabbing. At least 10 is common. In the inlines of course, because of the projectiles we shoot I do find for accuracy reasons I need to swab. But shooting roundball, accuracy is not so badly effected.with black powder the fouling and crud ring (if any) is very soft. A spit patch or alcohol patch will pull it quickly out of the barrel and have be back shooting ASAP.

#5 Performance...While it is not the most powerful powder on the market, performance is excellent. Ignition is excellent. And I think a lot of the hype of this one will push it 200 ft faster per second is all a selling tool. If not so, why does a conical bullet have the killing power it does at 1100 fps?

#6 Cleaning... I do not find black powder rifles hard to clean. Granted they might stink a little. But water will clean them, and do it fast. Normally with in ten patches I have the rifle clean. And I am never in a hurry to clean a rifle. I take my time. I get it right. Black powder and me just seem to get along when it comes to cleaning. I know there are other powders out there that clean easier. But I don't like to ever consider cleaning as a reason to choose one powder over another.

Other powders I have tried... Blackhorn 209 (very good powder, expensive, and hard to find), JSG 3f (good in revolvers), APP 2f & 3f (good in some rifles, terrible in others), Triple Seven 2f & 3f (a very good powder, powerful, hate the crud ring), Pyrodex RS & P (a great powder, would be right up there with black powder. A favorite powder to shoot), Pinnacle 2f & 3f ( I liked this powder but it is impossible to get), Clear Shot (was ok to shoot, but nothing to get excited about. Bought a case of it on a close out, and so it was cheap), Clean Shot (I think this is the old APP. Again, it was good in some rifles), Black Mag (a good powder. It shot well, was easy to clean. Expensive, and hard to find.. but I liked this powder).

For me Goex meets my needs the best. I prefer to clean with water and I like the low cost of Goex and the consistency from shot to shot. I also like the easy ignitiuon of real black powder. I have yet to try Swiss but I have heard great things about it. I also use triple 7 and like it. In some hunting situations I might go with triple 7 because it is a little more forgiving if I can't clean the gun immediately.
Overall, I go with Goex most of the time.
Art

Here we go again. I shoot two types of ML's. Inline and sidelocks. I have settled on what I use in each type of gun. I've tried every powder on the market and past market. I use only what i'm going to list, because all the rest wasn't as good to me.

Sidelock (cap and flint)

Swiss 2F

I use only Hawken style guns with easily removable barrels.

Put breech in bucket of soapy water, and pump water through barrel for a few minutes. Nipple removed.

Dump soapy water out and fill with clear HOT water with a little Ballistol in it to prevent flash rusting. Pump for a few minutes. Dry barrel with patches, and then coat bore with straight Ballistol. No rust ever with this method.


Inlines.

BH 209 only.

Clean bore with Butch's Bore Shine.

Pretty simple.




Thoughts on other powders.

T7....Crud ring nightmare
ePyrodex....Clumpy..Begins to lose power as soon as the bottle is opened. Has no business in a sidelock, and can't compare to BH 209 in an inline.

APP/JSG.....Junk. Inconsistent kitty litter.

White Hots..Elk crap pellets. No thanks. Not legal in Co.

Goex and Schuetzen..... Good powders for sidelocks. Just not as good as Swiss.


Yes, i'm an strong opinionated old fart.

Goex and Swiss in the flint-er
Pyrodex in the Hawkins [both] and the Renegade
Blackhorn 209 in all the inlines
Have used 777 the crud ring was a nightmare. the only time I did not enjoy shooting
Tried several different versions of APP weakest powder there is and every once in a while I got a can that shot all over the target.
Would use more black but it is very hard for me to get, I find Pyrodex a good sub for percussion sidelock guns.

Pyrodex in the renegade and wolverine, shoot conicals in both. used 777 for quite awhile in the Triumph, crud ring was terrible, switched to Bh209. for overall performance in modern inlines, BH 209 is the ticket. sidelocks and plunger style rifles, it's pyrodex all the way.i am using a 15 yr old jug of pyrodex and the POI is the same as the new jug i recently bought.only change i might make is going to pyrodex P when i run out the standard pyrodex. Ray

For the powders I only shoot BH209 in my inline (TC Bone Collector). For my sidelocks I started off using Pyro RS and have no problems with it. However with recently buying a flintlock I bought Goex. Shot Goex for the first time today and I really didn't see the difference compared to Pyro. So I'll probably start shooting Goex in all my sidelocks.

Cleaning isn't that hard if you take the time. I'm the few that doesn't use soap and water though. I have had no problems with T17 cleaning products. They may take alittle longer but less mess. Also for a little tip. If you use GUN SCRUBBER it really cleans out the nipple and the snail part!

Cost: Blackhorn is expensive but I love it too much to give up in my inline. Goex and Pyro is about the same for me. But Goex takes the pie with FFFFG for my flintlock.

Performance: Goex, BH209, Pyro. Work great and I dont have the swab atleast until the 3rd or 4th shoot. BH209 I don't swab. No crud ring really to complain about.

Accuracy: Great with all three powders.

Corrosion: Havnt seen anything yet. I do worry that Goex maybe more corrosive then Pyro. But I havnt seen it yet, just heard lots of stories.

They only other powder I've used is 777. And I hated it. Talk about dirty dirty and crud ring. Goex is like pure water compared to that stuff.

It's been proven that's not true with Pyro. You're in denial.;)

In 6 mo it will lose 300fps.

My POI is the same with the new and old bottle. 300 fps difference can be found when using a brand new bottle of 777, let alone pyrodex.that boat don't float. also never had a bottle clump on me ever.and the 15 yr old bottle i have now, looks as good as the new one... Ray

My BP club tested the powder, and that what we found. It's hard for me to prove that, so I looked for something else to show you.

All I can find at the moment is a test by Toby. This is what he found.


Modern black powder substitutes have come a long ways since Dan Pawlak, of Issiquah, Washington first formulated the earliest form of Pyrodex back in the early to mid 1970s. During the late 1980s, I conducted a "shelf life" test with Pyrodex "RS"...and in the course of 6 months, from October 1 to April 1, I found that a 100 grain charge of the powder, behind a saboted 260-grain Speer .451" JHP lost more than 100 f.p.s. (shot from a 24" barreled Knight MK-85). And by the end of that summer, velocity was down nearly 300 f.p.s. from the velocities I had gotten when I first shot out of that canister of powder a year earlier. And that was a very common complaint with Pyrodex. Once the seal was broken, the powder lost its oomph. Powder used one season could not be used the following season.

LOL. ok that was 1980's pyrodex. and regardless of that, i have never had it CLUMP on me. also the old bottle POI and the new are the same.. keep posting whatever you like these facts won't change old timer.. Ray

How are your facts any better than mine?

Whatever.

You guys have seen my my range session reports. Does GOEX ring a bell? :biggrin: I've got some T7, Pyrodex, JSG and Blachorn in my powder bag. But I don't think I've shot anything but GOEX in the last year or two.

It's;

1. Consistent.
2. Reliable.
3. All the power needed for the type of hunting I do.
4. Easy cleaning.
5. Inexpensive.
6. Mighty fine smelling. :rolleye0011:

6. Mighty fine smelling. :rolleye0011:

I save the water I clean my guns with and use it as cologne. If you mix a little balistol in with it it is even better.

I have Pyrodex Select RS and T7 FF, and I keep shooting real BP(Goex). I might take a day trip to Dixon's and see if they have Swiss.

I like the smell!!

Now this is not a scientific test. But I had a jug of Pyrodex RS that was over five years old. It was one (unopened) that I had put on a back shelf in a bag with the receipt. So I knew the date I purchased it. When I found it, the price sticker on the lid kind of gave it away too. I am one of these that keep buying stuff on sale. Since then I have learned to rotate my stock.

When I shot that old Pyrodex RS it shot to the same place on the target as a new jug. Whether it lost some fps I can not say as I never owned a chronograph in my life. I used up that old jug just like I would have a new one.

Another powder that I had a long time was Clean Shot. I had purchased what was left of a case of it when a store went out of business. Before I shot off the last jug it had to be over five years old. It went bag every time and seemed accurate at close ranges out of my traditional rifles. Actually it was a fun powder to shoot. I believe that later turned into American Pioneer Powder Company.

ok, but when someone tells u that u smell like crap, dont take it as an insult :s2:

I believe the key with ANY powder whether that be Goex, Pyro, 777, BH209, Smokeless, etc. is how you store it. You read any lable of powder and they say a dry cool place. If you make sure the cap is on tight, out of sunlight, dry air, and not in super hot enviro. You will be ok. I just think alot of people are careless with powder.

It doesn't lose power until you open it. I stated that, and so did Toby.

I have to agree with your statement about proper storage.I have some Pyro pellets that were given to me unopened. they were dated 1998.I don't use them very often,but,when i do,they go bang.I keep them in a metal ammo can.

That's exactly my findings with pyrodex. i have a 15 yr old bottle and a new one POI the same! and never had it clump ever. Ray

I doubt you ever tested it with a chronograph.

POI is depending on the guy pulling the trigger. Hardly an accurate test.

Way too many complaining the powder loses power after the bottle is opened. Backed up with accurate testing.

There's much better powders than Crapodex.

As I said, I was not shooting long distance so if it had lost fps there would be little effect on the accuracy. But that old Pyrodex shot just fine. And that Clean Shot I purchased, even though that was old I shot roundball off with it out of a couple rifles and it was amazing to see how accurate it was. I was almost sad when it was finally all shot off. One reason I purchased APP after that. Strange thing is, the APP did not shoot as well as the Clean Shot. The only powder I found that worked as good was Pinnacle. That is a good powder.

Pinnacle is a pretty good powder.

I've heard from some CAS members that APP is the same as the old Clean Shot, but others say Clean Shot was better. So, who knows?


To be honest. I think Swiss BP is the most consistent best shooting powder I can buy. It also seems to have close to the same power as T7. It stinks and is messy like all BP, but I love the stuff.

I'm very tempted to use it in my Omega too. I like BH 209, but don't like that it won't clean up with water.

Honestly, you are the only person I've ever heard make this claim. It's not that I'm doubting you, just that I've never heard it before. That being said, I also don't own a chronograph, and honestly, I don't care if it looses a few fps as long as it shoots to the same spot and accurately.

How can I be the only person when I posted what Toby Bridges said in his test? Read it and you'll see he also said it's a common complaint.

If you can't find it. Here it is again.


Modern black powder substitutes have come a long ways since Dan Pawlak, of Issiquah, Washington first formulated the earliest form of Pyrodex back in the early to mid 1970s. During the late 1980s, I conducted a "shelf life" test with Pyrodex "RS"...and in the course of 6 months, from October 1 to April 1, I found that a 100 grain charge of the powder, behind a saboted 260-grain Speer .451" JHP lost more than 100 f.p.s. (shot from a 24" barreled Knight MK-85). And by the end of that summer, velocity was down nearly 300 f.p.s. from the velocities I had gotten when I first shot out of that canister of powder a year earlier. And that was a very common complaint with Pyrodex. Once the seal was broken, the powder lost its oomph. Powder used one season could not be used the following season...Toby Bridges

Exactly what i have been trying to tell the stubborn old timer lol. pyrodex works well especially with conicals, never had it clump and always consistent. old jug and new jug POI is the same, what more can you ask for..Ray

I have to stop using invisible ink.

Nobody can see what I type.

You need to stop believing what Toby Bridges says, he'll say or do anything for money...

Who do you think is paying him to rag on Hodgdon? Everything on his web site isn't a lie. This is one of them.

I guess you all missed the part about my club tested the powder too? I saw the results. I didn't push it, because the results weren't published. We did it for ourselves.

Ah man! I don't care what you all think. I gave my opinion based on experience. You probably wouldn't believe it's more corrosive than BP either. :p

Muley Hunter,

You must be wrong. My findings are the same as yours but even worse. I'm never right, you better bail out of this conversation.

cayugad,
This is actually a very good topic. I'm going to assume you mean for inline muzzleloaders.

777 has been by far the best powder to use in an inline ML. It has been more consistent then, Goex, Pyrodex, Pinnacle, and others. Though i hate the crud ring, it's a mute point in a hunting situation.

I will say BH209 would be even better if the Muzzleloaders were built to use it. Way to many problems in most Muzzleloaders built today.

:s2::s2::s2: MuleyHunter, I hereby knight you Sir SOT (Stubborn Old Timer). :s2:

SEMI, there is a English definition of a SOT also. but i won't go there.:p

How many Blackhorn 209 shooters have that carbon build up in the plug? And how often do you have to clean that out? I mean you could shoot all day on the range right?

The reason I ask is when I tested Blackhorn 209 I used a Knight Disc Original and it worked great with the orange primers. BUT I was under the impression I did something to ruin the breech plug as after a while I started getting bad ignition. I was not even aware of this carbon build up I have read about. I now believe that is what happened to the Disc breech plug. Also the face of the breech plug was basically eaten up. But I believe the fact that I was re using the orange primer jackets and there was blow back, was causing that. And now that there is no access to Blackhorn 209 in my area... I can not test my theory again.

How many shots do you think it was before things started going bad?

cayugad

This just my opinion and that is all I am speaking to. I was not even going to get into this thread because, very few are going to agree, including myself.

Rock sparkers... all I use is GOEX... again because of availablity.

When it comes to to shooting cap ignition, I really am stuck on T7, it is readily available and it is priced roght for my world - $20/lb. It provides me with a margin of safety in the manner that I shoot and clean my guns especially during hunting season, as it is not even as corrosive as some would lead you to believe and certainly less corrosive than the other subs or real BP.

Inlines... I do use T7 for the same reason as listed above. But in all honesty... I do believe BH is great powder and if it were priced more accordingly I am sure that I would use it in my 209 guns... but I do have a slight problem, I have recently picked up a couple #11 guns, along with my White, and you know I really like shooting them, so T7 is the diet there. Even more interesting now is the fact that Knight has available a kit that will allow you to shoot caps from your DISC Extremes or Elites and you know shooting #11's is not really that bad - a bit dirty but really it works just as well for ignition as does 209's...

BH in your DISC Original.... with the Orange DISC, I can see where there might be some gas cutting/etching with that set up as some leakage at the cap and BP should probably be expected and for that matter as well with the Red FPJ, when using the hot primers and then adding the heat of the blow back into the equation. The physical heat produced by BH is much greater than the heat of T7. This is really noticable when shooting on warmer days.

With the Lehigh conversion kit installed, you should be able to sit down and shoot 50 shots and not show much of anything in the breech or in the BP, the shape of the Lehigh vent liner aids in shedding some of the blow back off to the sides of the flash hole and out of the flash channel. Of course with the quality of metal used for the BP it would very difficult to do anything with other polish it.