builder459

Actually it can shoot more if you want to play with sabotless. Ive seen guys using 1-20 DISCs shooting a sized 45-250gr FTX faster than most guys can shoot them sabotted in a 50cal. I havent tried it much yet in my 1-30. Pretty much any sabotted hunting bullet a 1-30 can shoot a 1-20 can shoot too. In a 1-30 you may have to drive them a bit faster to get the same stabilizing effect.....which isn't always a bad thing either.

BTW my Savage 50 is a 1-24 too and will handle 225gr to 400gr bullets in sabots fine with subs or smokeless. When in doubt spin it faster. ;)

If you want to go with conicals and a 1:30 twist why not go traditional. My Lyman Great Plains Hunter has a 1:32 twist and is very accurate with a 425 gr lead conical and 110 gr 777. The Lyman 57 peep made to go on them is the best peep sight you can get.

Chet,after doing a bit of thinking. i have decided to buy a .45 cal GMB LRH barrel and stick it on the old renegade stock i have here. GMB states the twist on the .45 is 1:30. i like the set trigger on the renegade and since it's just sitting here doing nothing lol. why not, only thing i do not like is the weight. other than that it's a win win situation..slam a peep on it and she will be ready to go! Ray

I like my all copper Thor conical.

They leave holes this big :arms:

wow, that is big

That's what the elk said as he hit the dirt.

I also have a .50 Wolverine and I agree it's a great gun.
Never fired conicals from it..never thought of it as a conical
gun. So do you mind sharing your loads? I don't have the time
to go and try a lot of loads so any help would be appreciated.

Oh and good luck on finding that .45

Not sure if this will help you or not but I shoot .504/460 grain Bull Shop conicals from my MK-85 (50 cal). 90 grains T7-2f, a .510x.125 shot card on top of the powder then that big hunk of lead....

It rocks! on both ends...

builder459

Ray, i have hesitated getting into this one because I honestly do know the twist rate of the GM-LRH 45 cal barrel. I have a couple of 50 GM's and they are 1/28 and I would assume the 45 would be the same thing.... BUT.... GM seems to believe that 1/30 twist (mathematically) is the ideal twist for a 45 and the shorter 45 cal bullets available. So when you look at a .451/488 gr. Bull Shop how that might do in that twist - I am really not sure. If the bullet is made well it should be OK but I just do not know.

Mike the GMB site is confusing lol. if i wanted to shoot .45 cal .460 or 488 gr bullets the 1:20 is the ticket. like you said the 1:30 shoots the lighter conicals well. where does that leave the .45 1:28? about the same as the 1:30? Ray

Well, yes and know....with a conical I can see two different problems that might rear their heads...

1. the length of the bullet is going to require a faster twist to stabilize that long og a projectile. I think that people are areasy shooting the long Bull Shop from a 1/28 it is just a matter of achieving the velocity the twist needs to stabilize. I think we all know the 1/24 does the best overall job of providing stabilization to longer bullets.

You mention the 1/20 twist and I am not so sure that might not be to fast for a long lead conical. The general rule is that if you under-stabilize a projectile accuracy goes to pot... and theoretically there is no such thing as over-stablization - but I think there really is... and that is part 2

2. bullet consruction can really effect stabilization. If shot from a twist to fast the bullet is set to spin so fast that imperfections in the bullets contruction will be magnified and 'wobble' induced by the spin will appear.... causing a loss of accuracy

Just running off - so if your thoughts differ - go fer it... I certainly do not know it all like another on this site...

Thanks for the suggestion. Ummm but that's a lot more than I
want as far as recoil is concerned lol. I agree that would rock on
both ends. I'll look for something in the low 300's. Shouldn't be
to brutal on the shoulder.

Mike i think somewhere we got wires crossed lol..45 cal 1;20's shoot big lead .460/.488 real well long conicals lol. .45 cal 1:30 shoot mid weight conicals 300-400 even 350's real well. where does that leave the .45 cal 1:28..and what is you opinion on the 1:28 and conicals.. sorry for confusion.. after shooting the wolverine .50 cal today with .460 NE, i know the 1:28 can do well with a good fitting conical in 1:28. Ray

this is a good example of a mid weight 340 gr conical from a .45 cal 1:30. and i have seem some excelent results from cayugad with his .45 cal 1:20 twist white with .488 gr conicals. Green mountain barrels site list the .45 replacement barrel in the title as 1:30 and on the item as a 1:28 lol. i am confused. so what do you think would be the difference between a .45 cal 1:28 VS 1:30?http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...their-45s.html i might also ad CVA .45's are 1:28 now. Ray

No I do not think so - I understood that you thought the 1/20 might be a great big conical gun but I am not sure of that because lead conicals can develope 'wobble', do to rotating to fast, much easier than a copper lead manufactured bullet.

I am not sure there was a confusion, I believe that the 1/28 could shoot the LONG conicals better than the 1/20 because of over-spin.

I have in the past shot long conicals...50 cal, very well from 1/24 - 1/28 - 1/48 - I have no experience with the faster 1/20 twist rate, but form the reading I have done - I am not sure it would work with a lead conical - but I do not know that.

Correct because the 1/28 or even the 1/24 does not induce over spin or over stabilization with the charges that we shoot heavy conicals with. It is my estimation that a 1/20 would unless you backed way down on the charge...

Here is an clipping of what I am trying to say....

A term we often hear is "over-stabilization" of the bullet. This doesn’t happen. Either a bullet is stable or it isn’t. Too little twist will not stabilize the bullet, while too much twist, with a couple of exceptions, does little harm. Faster than optimum twists tend to exaggerate errors in bullet concentricity and may cause wobble. The faster twist also causes the bullet to spin at higher rpm, which can cause bullet blowup or disintegration because of the high centrifugal forces generated. For example, the .220 Swift, at 4,000 fps., spins the 50-grain bullet at 240,000 rpm.

I think we are talking the same point - but I am disagreeing with the 1/20 concept and a lead conical unless it is awfulwell built....

White .rifles made for big lead.my undestanding is 45 cal 1:20/ .50 cal 1:24. both designed for big lead conicals. after reading up on all of this stuff lol and seeing some of cayugads scary accurate results with a .451 white rifle and 488 gr conical.and the reviews on the no excuse web site and the results his customers get with the .45 cal whites and a 460 NE bullet. when i spoke to the gentleman from NE he told me the .45 cal rifles were getting better accuracy than the .50 cals. he shoots one himself.one thing i do know is the range of bullets with the 1:20 is very limited.no matter,what i really wanted to know originally are the GMB replacement .45 cal barrels 1:28 or 1:30,since reading the information on there site. i don't think they know lol.. Ray

Can you say OUCH!!!!

OUCH! is exactly what a buck said a few years back.... I made a terrible shot on him high in the spine just forward of the rump... But when it hit it knocked the buck down and on his way down he turned his head and tried to bite the entrance hole (actually mess)... i am sure he was saying ouch at the same time...

If the Whites 45's a 1/20 - nuff said... they won the Manufactures Trophy the last time White competed - they shot .451's.

Actually it was a .368 cal rifle:cool2:. From Doc's site......


"White had been participating in the National Muzzleloading Manufacturer's Match in Friendship, Indiana, put on by the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association since 2000. The original concept was to shoot commonly available muzzleloading target rifles in competition at paper and steel target from 25 to 150 yards. Tuning was allowed but only what an ordinary hunter might do to his hunting rifle. It soon became obvious that the various companies were doing far more than that, with special barrels, and bullets and the best of shooters. White tried competing with off the shelf rifles but their amatuer shooters usually lost badly to other more sophisticated teams. In 2007, I was approached by a group who saw the potential in the White System. As a consequence, we (the team and I) designed a .368 caliber rifle that I called the Varminter, designed for slow, meticulous shooting at small game or target. The team won that year, 2007, beating all old records for team and individual shooting by a substantial margin. Our best shooter only lost 9 points out of 300 for the match. The performance was so astounding that the match disappeared. Nobody wanted to come back to face that kind of competition. I was personally disappointed that the other companies did not rise to meet the competition."

367/300 SuperSlug (BC= .33)
This is also an experimental caliber. It will be very useful as it betters the ballistics of the much loved 38-55 of yesteryear. The bore mikes .368 land-land, with a groove depth of .375. Twist is 1-14. Bullet is cast weighing 300 gr. at .368 diameter, then is sized to .367. It is accurate and hits hard with 80-90 grains Pyrodex P. It’s sure to be a good killer on deer sized game. Recoil is surprisingly mild. A similar combination was used by the White Muzzleloading target team to win the 2007 Manufacturer's Match with record score.

Nimrodder

I stand corrected...:confused0024: 2007 that was along time ago... I was young then:happy0001:

And the team that White beat in that competition and set a new record was ?:confused::confused:
Anybody know? I'll give you a clue. They are back in business.:biggrin:
As far as the 45 cal 1:20 twist. I don't know how well they shoot as I haven't had time to do much lately but my Doc built .451 has a 1:20 twist.:fighting0007: He recommends 460 to 530 gr conicals. Most long Range muzzys have a 1:18 twist, such as the Gibbs etc. so I have a hard time accepting that the 1:20 twist would be to fast. harder to work up the best load ,yes, to fast no

Knights own 45cal target rifle model DE658B was a 1-18 twist 28" barrel Extreme. It won for several years if not all years between 2001-2006? Its in the Knight 2006 catalog.

Nearly all the of the Savage and Remington replacement SML barrels PacNor/Krieger/McGowen/Brux/ect are from 1-18 to 1-22 twist and shoot 40-200gr bullets in sabots with amazing accuracy even at 300 yards or beyond. We are talking about a saboted bullet moving upto 3000fps and 35k psi or more.

These are highend barrels with a good history of proven excellent accuracy. Add in the sabotless applications also and the sky is the limit. Busta was shooting the 250gr SST sabotless/BH209 in a 1-20 at speeds (2300fps) exceeding most 50cals and doing it VERY accurately. Sabotless isn't for everyone but its not that hard with 1-3 sizing dies and 2 files.

IMO a fast twist 45 has serious potential to get costs down with conicals or sabotless without sacrificing good sabot accuracy too. Just don't expect a 155gr bullet to shoot accurately at 2500fps with 3 Pyro pellets. Personally i want a custom 1-24 twist 45cal or a gain twist barrel ending in 1-18 but those are SUPER expensive to make. Just the straight 1-24 twist is going to cost me an additional $150 from Pacnor vs their standard 1-22 twist.

When Knight won the competition they were shooting conical bullets too. I had never seen the target rifle you are referring to. I wonder how many of them are out there.
Could you scan a a pic of that rifle from their catalog?

Sure, here is the pdf file. The pic is the top right under the shooting team. They must be super rare because i can only find one and it belongs to a Knight employee. Ive been trying to talk him out of it or a 1-20 for a affordable price. :D

http://images.ebsco.com/pob/knightri...talog-ver2.pdf

Thanks, that's interesting.