Another BH209 Problem???
 

Was a the range last Friday and was shooting my Knight Vision. I was loading 100grs. of BH209 under the Hornaday FPB bullets. I was trying the 300 gr bullet. I have been shooting the 350 gr. bullets now for a while and wanted to try the lighter bullets.

Well after shooting a couple of primers through the barrel and after running a couple of patches to clean out the barrel of any oils. My first shot fired and I new it wasn't right. It was as if I was shooting a very light load and had vey little recoil. And sure enough, when I checked out my target, the shot was very low. As much as 20" below POA. I couldn't believe it and thought my scope had how gotten off. I know I had not dropped my gun or banged it any way. My second shot was more normal and with plenty of recoil it hit close to POA.

Everything went normal after that and I came to the conclusion that the 350gr bullets were going to be my bullet of choice. The 300 gr FPBs were all over the place, no matter how much I changed my powder charge.

Well as I was shooting one of my last shots, I got the worst fire I have ever gotten with a ML'der with a full charge. It was as if I had dry loaded a bullet and removed the nipple and put a small amount of powder to get the bullet out of the barrel. It was that bad. Now this was 100gr powder load?!?! This is not making any sense to me.

All in all I fired about 23 bullets through my Vision that day. I didn't run any patches through the barrrel between shots. I don't do this with BH209 and didn't think it was necessary to do it now. This has got me stumped. This powder is new and kept in a cool dry place.

Anyone ever had this happen to them? Or does anyone have a possible explanation? I love this powder and the way it performs in my Knight Vision. I don't want to change, but I don't want this to happen to me when I am in the woods and Bullwinkle comes along!

Help!!!

sounds like your plug isnt working well with BH209.

What primers are you using?

Perhaps the 300 gr's aren't providing enough resistance or compression, for proper ignition, since the 350's are working.

I did have a problem when I first started using BH209 and Winchester primers. I talked to the Bh209 company and they advised using Federal Mag or CCI mag primers. I was using the CCI mags that day. I may take it to the range again and use the Federal mags primers and see if that happens again.

I don't know what to do. I could sell the gun and get another inline. I did set this Knight Vision up for long range shooting and it excells with my setup. I just don't want it to happen at the wrong time.

could be something as simple as a plugged up flash channel.

The only full bore ignition issues ive had with BH209 was with loose sabotless bullets i was trying out. They also hit very low and recoil was much less. Adding a felt or fiber wad helped but not enough to continue the experiment at that time.

Im not very impressed with the SD/BC of 50cal bullets in the 300gr range. IMO i would stick with what worked and IMO 350gr for a 50cal should be a better choice if it shoots well.

rafsob;i've never shot the FPB's but i do shoot blackhorn out of my vision and have never had a hang/misfire with it.i use a tight dry patch both sides and then a pipe cleaner and wire to clear the breechplug.i also use 100g Bh209, 250g barnes tipped boatail with supplied yellow sabots ignited with W209 primer.did you use a 1/8" drill bit to clean the carbon out of the breech plug?the one time i cleaned out a breechplug with a primer before i patched the oil out i had a hell of a mess to clean out.i think if you had oil in the breech plug when you popped those primers you might have a heavy build up of carbon/oil stuck in there from the begining?i've done about 20 shots during my range outings and afterwards did have alot of carbon build up.how easy do those fpb's load once their started?do you think they sit tight on the powder?good luck......karl

Yea I wouldn't call it a BH problem, rather a breech plug or cleaning problem. If the flash channel starts to get build up, and will fairly quick if residual oil is in it, then could have problems. Use the drill bit every 8-10 shots, should be OK.
Disclaimer: far from an expert, only my experience.

Oil in the breach plug got me once bad too and carbon built up MUCH faster. I popped a couple of primers and then tried some CCI209Ms but still had issues until i gave it a good cleaning.

I seldom use mag primers except in extreme conditions or just for testing. Close to 90% of my shots have been with Win209s or even weaker primers and no hang fires. Most of that credit goes to the Lehigh and Ron's plugs though because the primers fit very well and blowby is nearly zero.

Hey Karl, Once I get the PFB started it is tight but smooth till it is seated. I guess I will do the drill bit trick and see how much carbon I get out of the bp. This may be my problem.

Larry

If you don't periodically clean carbon out of the flash channel you will eventually get what you have described, a hang fire or something funky. I recommend cleaning the carbon out of it between every set of groups.

And I thought I was cleaning that bp good. So much for that idea. I must rethink my ML cleaning procedures.

Larry; if you have never used a drillbit on it before your in for a shock,that carbon can get very hard.i use the bits that come with a 1/4" HEX HEAD and drill by hand.i also made one from left over 3/8" dowel that i can use in my disc without removing the BP.have fun........karl

I was convinced it was a seating pressure problem until your last post on page one. If you have not been cleaning out the rear pocket of your breechplug with a drill bit, that is almost certainly your problem. You will be astounded at how much fouling you get out and how hard it is. You will also be surprised at how far up the breechplug the drillbit will go. I don't use a drill, just grab the drillbit with a pair of pliers and turn the breechblug by hand.

Everybody knows there is a learning curve with BH209, but using a drill bit in the channel has been well documented for 3 years now. The 350's will still be a much better choice than the 300's.

You have such a way with words my friend. You should see about a job in the state department and become a diplomat! :poke:

The new Vision plug has never been approved for BH209. I have had pretty good results but not for hunting that's for sure.

On February 1st this year - I got an email from "Gordy Edwards" at Knight Rifles - and he assured me that the breech plug - part # 900046 - for bare primers, is made specifically to solve any problems with shooting BH 209. He said, he has been shooting it for over 2 yrs. with great results.
I have a Knight Vision rifle and also the new bp - but due to the deep snow, our shooting range is closed and I have to wait till warmer weather to try it out. I like the extra weight and the way the Vision comes up so natural - it feels real good and I think I'm gonna like shooting it better than My TC Bone collector.
Ditto, on keeping that flash channel clean. I use a 1/8" drill bit - just in my fingers - every 20 shots or so at the range. It's a must.

Thanks guys for the info.

last year my vision was in and out of my truck for over 3wks with the same load.add some freezing rain and snow in the mix.i finally got a shot at a small buck. he did not approve of the breech plug either,in fact it broke his heart.but i sure do:wave:......karl

Not sure about the part# you mentioned. But i will tell you that that the plug was made before BH209 was on the market. And Gordy was the one that sent me the plug to try. That plug is 100% not BH209 compatible.

Grouse; are you talking about the flat front breechplug or the convex faced one,the only knight plug i had problems with was the convex faced plug that came in the shadow.if i remember correctly didn't you use a vision with blackhorn on a pig hunt?what plug were you using then?...karl

The flat faced non magnetic plug is the plug i am talking about. And the first time i used BH209 was with a T/C Triumph. It might of been an Encore on the hunt your thinking about?????

The convex - or (domed) bp is the one I am referring to.
Now - I have conflicting information, so - I will just have to try it and find out for myself - as usual.
I don't believe it would be in the Gordys best interest to give me bad info. When they are trying to restart their business. That wouldn't sell many guns!

ok,idid a search and couldn.t find that thread but did find two others where you liked the flat faced plug and had no issue's with it.what has happened to change your mind?for a plug you say is not compatable why have i had such good luck with it with 0 problems.....karl

That was the best designed plug Knight ever made to tell you the truth. That very plug was the plug that really convinced me to make a cleaner plug for the Extreme, Elites with Lehigh.

I think you are mis-understanding what i'm saying. The plug is not 100% BH209 compatible. That's all i'm saying. If you keep the plug clean and use hot primers it will work for a few shots i would think????

A 100% BH209 plug should be able to use the four main primers in all temps and hunting conditions and fire BH209 reliably. Those primers are Remington STS,Winchester,Federal, and CCI. I'm not talking about just one shot either. I feel 25 shots should be no problem at all.

I will say the Knight Vision never mis-fired on me. But i did have delays with it and The Triumph. When i am hunting i do not want a delay. I dont even want to be wondering if it's going to happen.

Lehigh is making me a BH209 compatible plug for my two Visions soon. When i chose to hunt with the 52 this year, it delayed that having to be done.

Gordy would not give you bad information on purpose. He has not shot alot of BH209 until recently. The last time i was with him he actually liked 777 better then BH209. In some cases 777 is better, ecspecially with lighter bullets.

KB1, i found the picture. You are correct. I shot this Hog with BH209 before it was out on the market. And as you can see it's a Knight Vision. Keep in mind, this hunt is in April and it's pretty warm. I have learned alot since then about BH209.

My breech plug with my Remington was hang firing. I just drilled it out myself to make the hole bigger and it works like a charm now.

ok,i can see where this is going.lehigh makes good products,i even have one of there breechplugs in an original disc and it's very nice.but on the same note the knight NFPJ i put in another disc rifle has no issues firing blackhorn either.same goes for my triumph.i used to use federal 209a but have switched to standard winchester 209 after last years winter testing showed they worked as well(for me).......karl

If your thinking i'm trying to sell something your wrong. Lehigh can only sell what Knight Rifles wants. They worked out a deal together. The Vision plugs are for me and me only.

kb1

Let me add what I think I know... The flat face plug for the Vision was designed and brought out just prior to the introduction of BH-209. The design of the new plug was created to make it a cleaner NFPJ plug. This was accomplished by opening the and lengthing the 'flash channel' (putting the flash hole at the end of the plug instead of under the primer), both of these two aspects reduce the amount of blow back pressure felt at the nose of the spent primer and in that case reduce the amount of blow back escaping by the primer is reduced. I also believe Gordy also opened the 'flash hole' at least 0.001" to insure a more positve ignition of T7. You can see the effects in this picture although it is a bit blurry...



This picture shows the breech area after 12 shots of 110 grains BH209. This is far cleaner than than anything Knight had going at the time. But if you look closely at the opening of the flash channel in the BP you can see already a significant build up of carbon. I doubt that it would have made another 12 shots with out a hangfire or misfire. And even at the time I thought this was a very good plug for shooting BH. Today I would have to alter thought a bit.

Another thing I might mention Gordy has used the plug for 2 years but 95% of his shooting has been with T7. When Gordy created this plug he accomplished his design goals of a cleaner - reliable NFPJ for the Vision.

For myself only.... I believe this to be a fairly reliable plug for BH through 15 consecutive shots without cleaning the flash channel. Is it 100% reliable, not for me as I do so much target shooting, but for a hunter that shoots only a few shots - it works great as long as you clean the channel every-so-often.

Here is another projection I think will happen.... When Knight re-introduces the Vision, and since Lehigh is now under contract to Knight it will have a different breech plug in it - designed to shoot BH more relieably over an extended number of shots + be really clean.

Just passing on my thoughts...

That plug is 100% not BH209 compatible. [/quote]
gentleman;when i first answered this thread i was just trying to help a fellow enthusiast,when i read the above i have to admit it irked me because it ran counter to my experiances. and the way its worded made it seem to say that the plug is no good at all.

grouse,sabotloader;i've learned alot from both of you and i believe your knowledge in muzzleloading far exceeds mine.
i'm sure any part on any muzzleloader can be improved upon but the statement above seems a little "over the top"to me ....karl

kb1

Karl, I still think it is the best NFPJ breech plug Knight has (T7 & BH) and it certainly is the best available for the Vision.

How each of us rates a product is always a toss-up - We can not even agree on a the best bullet, the best powder, or even the best gun... so agreeing on a BP is not much different...

Actually I think Gordy's statement to you is a little misleading also...

I am sure at the time Gordy wrote this he and I believed it to be a very valid statement, especially after his frustrations with the KP1 and attempts to make that one BH compatible. Also I think it was a far more compatible plug than any NFPJ for the DICS system. If I could have used in a DISC - I would have changed to it a long time ago.

The real problem, in my mind, there is a learning curve attached to shooting BH - when you master the curve - shooting it becomes easy.

Remember back in the day... Underclocked invented the term 'crud ring' for the hard residue T7 leaves in some barrels.... then BH came out with their statement to us was it is "non-corrosive" and does not create a "crud ring". since those early days we have found out that it is midly 'corrosive' and the 'crud ring' has moved from the bore to the breech plug.

So not much of anything is a 100%

If it was we would all be shooting CVA's...

karl, sorry that i irked you. A lot of things on the internet irk me. My findings and testing prove the above statement to be true. Sorry that it differs from yours.:)

All it took for me was a .035" flash hole.

The 5/32" flash channel that grouse recommends does in fact help keep accuracy consistent. i noticed yesterday when shooting our apex that uses the factory flash channel, after 6 shots, i took 2 more and had them in the same hole, shot another that went 1 1/2" to the left, fired 2 more and the were still over on the left and started to climb higher. Keep the flash channels clean for consistent accuracy, thats all there is to it.

That pretty much sums it up.