Well my first trip to the range (5 frustrating hours worth) was less than satisfying. Here is a run down of my equipment 50cal TC Bone Collector Triumph, BH209, Remington STS primers, cleaned after ecery shot (figured when I go to shoot a deer it will be with a clean barrel so might as well duplicate the shot). I was on a rest and dont pull the trigger On a side note _ i had no idea how time consuming this sport is with all the cleaning etc - wow. (it is fun but I cant say I want to go through much more of this situation). Once I get it dialed in I will find it much more enjoyable

I was cleaning the bore and breech plug with Hornady's "One Shot Muzzleloader Cleaner". Breechplug's hole was cleaned with pipe cleaners and no carbon build up was allowed.

Scope was not an issue in this outing as it stayed firm to mounts

Ok so before firing the first shot I cleaned the heck out of the barrel with JB compound (per directions) and finished with dry patches etc. If people dont clean the heck out of their barrel I can see why they have a tough time loading some sabbots - no idea what they put in theose barrels after they are made but man it was nasty.

Now it is time to set up at 50 to get me in the neighborhood before moving back to 100yds. I load 90grains by volume and load the Barnes 250gr TEZ using the blue sabbot included with bullets. I was expecting it to be really tough to push down but it seemed to easy. I wasnt able to push it down with one hand by any stretch but it just wasnt the REALLY snug fit I was expecting. So first three shots get me there> i am thinking ok this is going to be good. So then I move to 100.

Well everything goes to crap at this point. Group completely opens up with 90grains looks like a chicken relieving hoimself on the target. So I up it to 100grains (keep in mind this is by volume). So I take about 6 more shots and the group looked better but a 3" -4" (two shots did touch each other) but no consistency - this is NOT what I want. I then try the 250 gr TEZ in a crush rib (black) harvestor it slides in wayyyy to easy and the shot is way off the mark - was no need to shoot another one of these (I could have pushed that one down with one hand).

I then tried the 250 TEZ in the black Harvestor (unribbed) EZ load sabbot - it too felt to loose (a tad easier than the blue Barnes sabbot that came with the TEZ).

So then I opened the pack of 300grain TC XTP Mag and used the sabot from that pack. It was more snug than the blues and fit the best. The shot should have been an inch high but hit exact dead center. I didnt have time to clean so loaded up another and that shot went 1" lower and two inches right.

So needless to say I am worn out....... So I need help from ya'll.

It would seem to me that once I get the appropriate sabbot that I can start playing with different grain and types of bullets as well as primers. Am I on the right track????? I know all MZ's need to have a really tight fitting sabot - especially using BH209. I didnt mess around with the 300grain TC XTP Mags cause it seemed pointless if I was uncomfortable in the fit of the sabbot.

So what are your thoughts? What is the next size up on the sabbot list based on the ones that come with the TC XTP Mags? I have no idea what size it is because there is no info about the sabbots on the conatiner.

So for being so long winded but wanted to give you as much info as possible so you can help steer me in the right direction. Thank you all in advance.

David

Maybe you should have just cleaned the factory grease out,and not used JB? Anyways if you want a tighter fit try the MMP-HPH12 here's MMP web site http://www.mmpsabots.com/ The black sabot that came with your TC XTP mags i think are the MMP HPH24.I hear alot about TC having Tight bores but mine is not Tight ,Like yours.I Didnt use JB,Just cleaned it real good before i shot it. IMO i think TC went to a little bigger bore size in their new rifles.Cause mine and my friends loads anything,heck i dont even have to swab between shots using T7.

For the first time out with a new gun I don't think things were that bad. If I was you I would shoot some more with that last bullet/sabot you used. The key to accuracy is consistency. If you are going to swab do it all the time, try to keep your seating pressure the same, and so on.
Art

I didnt go nuts with the JB (no more than 10 strokes total) so I am sure that isnt the reason for looser than expected sabbots. I would have to agree - just about everything I read about TC Triumph was how tight the barrels are. I was worried about finding a narrow enough sabbot and that has turned out to be not the case. I will take a look at what Harvester and MMP has to offer.

in my triumph I use 2 Triple 7 magnum pellets and a 250gr. Barns TEZ with great results

I was going to wait to provide my thoughts here but got your PM so I will start on it now.... there are so many things to cover.

I really would recommend not cleaning anything if you are shooting BH. I understand your reasoning but I have a completely different thought for you. Shooting on a clean bore is the way I would ever shoot a ML - they are far more consistent on a fouled bore and with BH you have very little chance of casuing a problem.... read this senario...

This never entered my mind while I was shooting but I think I will tell you. This Knight Elite has been loaded with T7 since the end of elk season, October 24. It has been in good weather, sub-freezing temps, terrible rain storms, hail, sleet and snow lots of snow. I have done most everything wrong. It has come in and out of the cab of the truck and from there into the house and of course back out again several times. Yet, at the moment of the shot I really never even thought about the gun not going off as planned. After all I have been practicing this for years now.

It will get better - much better

With BH do not use any water based products - most use Hoppes #9 - but you do not have to that cleaning at the range.... Other than hand turning a drill bit in the breech every 8-10 shots

I can totally agree with that one....

After running JB's that sounds about normal - the blue sabots are the thinnest MMP. Verify for me weather they have 3 or 4 petals?

Again i would agree the CR is to loose... but for a brand new barrel and a brand new shooter all of that is not that bad + the cleaning you were trying to do between shots.... Not all that bad....

The sabot with the XTP is a MMP HPH-24. That is the sabot I use 99% of the time in all my ML including the Triumph.

So as some wise old guy said - Rome was not built in one day... things will get a lot easier - pretty soon you will be complaining that shooting a ML is simple....

[quote] It would seem to me that once I get the appropriate sabbot that I can start playing with different grain and types of bullets as well as primers. [quote]

With the ML you have it really is not all that complicated - it just takes experiance and time... Were you shooting with a seasoned ML shooter a lot of this would never happen. But, i will say this in the long run you are better off going through these trials.... Because even though you might not believe it - you have learned...

No they do not need to be 'really tight' they need to snug (35-30#) of pressure - two hands pusing down and then you need to seat the sabot tightly on the the powder.



The next size up is the HPH-12 - but I really think you are right where you belong with the black HPH-24.

Check your PM....


Hope all of this has not confused you more....

mike

I ran 50 strokes of JB's thru my BC before i shot it. The Barnes TEZ in the blue sabot didnt shoot well for me, they loaded way to easy. I would suggest you try a harvester short black sabot with those barnes TEZ. Im getting excellent groups with that load. I shoot the SST's for practice and hunt with the barnes. They shoot the same out of my gun with the HSB sabots. I also wouldnt swab between shots as sabotloader said.

I don't know one person i can think of who didn't get excellent accuracy out of the .250 TEZ in a T/c triumph/ omega.start with 90 grs 3or5 shot group swab with windex or 50/50 windex alcohol mix mix.if thats no acceptable try 95 grs all the way up to 110 in 5 gr incruments. the TEZ's in my triumph load with what i feel is perfect pressure. not to hard and not to easy. the .250 gold dot/deep curls with a crushed rib sabot load about the same and are just as accurate.most of the guys here in certain parts of california have to shoot copper, due to the condor/big vulture lol and they shoot omegas and triumphs and the TEZ is the go to bullet and deadly accurate. i don't live in the portion of california that requires me to use copper.and most of the time 110 grs Bh 209 gives optimal performnce.. patience helps until you find the right combo.

Didnt realize you were using BH, scratch swabbing between shots as sabotloader stat and i wouldn't give up on the TEZ yet either.

[QUOTE=sabotloader;3742508]I was going to wait to provide my thoughts here but got your PM so I will start on it now.... there are so many things to cover.



I really would recommend not cleaning anything if you are shooting BH. I understand your reasoning but I have a completely different thought for you. Shooting on a clean bore is the way I would ever shoot a ML - they are far more consistent on a fouled bore and with BH you have very little chance of casuing a problem.... read this senario...

This never entered my mind while I was shooting but I think I will tell you. This Knight Elite has been loaded with T7 since the end of elk season, October 24. It has been in good weather, sub-freezing temps, terrible rain storms, hail, sleet and snow lots of snow. I have done most everything wrong. It has come in and out of the cab of the truck and from there into the house and of course back out again several times. Yet, at the moment of the shot I really never even thought about the gun not going off as planned. After all I have been practicing this for years now.



It will get better - much better



With BH do not use any water based products - most use Hoppes #9 - but you do not have to that cleaning at the range.... Other than hand turning a drill bit in the breech every 8-10 shots



I can totally agree with that one....



After running JB's that sounds about normal - the blue sabots are the thinnest MMP. Verify for me weather they have 3 or 4 petals?



Again i would agree the CR is to loose... but for a brand new barrel and a brand new shooter all of that is not that bad + the cleaning you were trying to do between shots.... Not all that bad....



The sabot with the XTP is a MMP HPH-24. That is the sabot I use 99% of the time in all my ML including the Triumph.



So as some wise old guy said - Rome was not built in one day... things will get a lot easier - pretty soon you will be complaining that shooting a ML is simple....

[quote] It would seem to me that once I get the appropriate sabbot that I can start playing with different grain and types of bullets as well as primers. No - all really good info. It wont hurt my feelings at all not to have to clean the gun after every shot - man that was a pain I did forget the drill bit today. I completely forgot about water based product and BH209 (didnt even think to check to see what the Hornady One Shot was made of). I see some use the windex/alcohol mixture????

Talk to you more later.

Thank you very much.