The full bore conical
 

With all this talk about bullets I thought I might say something about the direction I have gone.
About a year ago I got my first White rifle and at the same time started shooting lead conicals anywhere from 420 grains up to 535 grains. I also found that if the bullet is sized right they will perform well in my other rifles as well.
The advantages I see are accuracy, and low cost of shooting plus tremendous knock down power. The cost of shooting becomes even more of a factor because these conicals do best with a lower powder load than most of you are use to using.
These heavy bullets have tremendous downrange performance because of their weight.
The downside, if you want to call it one, is that if you shoot much past 100 yards you have to be prepared to compensate for the bullet drop. This of course requires a lot of practice at different ranges. The accuracy is still there its just that you have more of a rainbow to your trajectory than the lighter pistol bullets.
Just my thoughts.

flounder33

Well ya... You have come to same conclusion(s) as Doc White.

I am the profound converted ceterfire nut - I can not give up trajectory and velocity. I still feel I need the speed for some of the shots that I am presented with.

flounder,

I agree 100% I find myself 'playing' around with other bullets and sabots, but when push comes to shove and I need to get serious, out comes the Bullshops.

The key, as you mentioned, is trajectory. I RARELY and I mean RARELY get a shot over 75 yards. So I worry very little about drop. People out west don't have that luxury.

I'll take a big and slow bullet over a fast and small one any day. (if that ain't a can of worms ain't nothin' :D)

Well most forum members are aware, I love my White Rifles and I like shooting big lead. When I saw a small charge, like 65 grains of powder push a 460 grain conical bullet eight inches into very (and I do mean very) solid poplar wood, I was shocked.

As some, my shots here in the woods are close. These big conicals are almost tailor made for me. They plant the animal well, get a pass through, and do impressive things. I have shot a lot of deer with conicals ranging from 300 to 426 grain. Seldom do they walk off.

There is a lot to be said for conical bullets out of a good shooting rifle.

My first BP kill was with a PRB and because there was no exit wound I switched to 370 grain Maxi Balls.I have never had a deer that's been hit by one of those chunks of lead get away.Always a pass thru and plenty of blood to trail if the need was there,though most times there was no tracking needed.I switched to inlines this year and have been trying lighter bullets because 75 yards was my maximum range with the Maxi Ball.I don't think it's worth it with all the bad news I'm hearing about light bullets.

I cast a 525 grain bullet for my 50 caliber MZ's. The bullet is devastating. My longest shot on an elk was 145 yards. He went maybe 30 yards after the shot. And it was all he could do to go 30 or so yards. He went sick from the moment he was hit. The bullet is devastating on deer.

I also shot all the sabots and all the expensive MZ bullets in those sabots. Then I went back to conicals. Guys always complain about the performance they get out of the $1 a piece bullets. But how often have you heard anyone complain about a 525 grain conical not knocking the snot out of a deer??

Practice is not a problem with a conical that you pour. The cost is so low that you can shoot all day. I would argue that practice is too costly with Barnes bullets, not the conicals you pour.

I do not find trajectory to be a problem. But I use an LRF when I hunt in areas where shots can be over 150 yards. No big adjustment is needed until you get to 150 yards(on big game).

I always think it is funny when someone says a MZ is only good to 100 yards with a heavy conical. When they openly know that buffalo hunters shot BP cartridges(and BP rifles) to extreme ranges, with great efficacy. I firmly believe an MZ is fully capable of the same. You just have to practice, and know what you are doing. Tom.

I would like to see a picture of what you are casting there Tom.

460 gr Paper Patched 500 S&W bullets. These big old bullets put the smack down on game and are sub 2" at 100 yards. Ron

I smacked a doe tonight with a pure lead .504 496gr "Trashcan" with 70gr of Swiss 3f out of a White Lightning. Lots of blood everywhere:arms:.

Nice job nim

I do not have any pictures of the conical I shoot. But I use the RCBS Adjustable HotchKiss mold. For some reason I landed on the 525 grain set on the mold. I have not tried different settings, the one I have just works perfect. heck out the rCBS catalog. I assume they still make the mold. But mine is probably 15+ years old. Tom.

How does one go about getting into conicals? I will be honest and have never tried conicals:poke:. I am a 250 grain Shockwave in 50 caliber loyal shooter so why am I asking? I have the opportunity to hunt an area in which I will only be able to see 50 yards in the heavy timber. The shockwaves are great at long distances but I have had a non pass thru at 20 yards once, the bullet did not expand well and was inside the hide after it broke both ribs, did its job but the deer here are very large. I want a shock and awe and powerful conical for short shooting. I shoot inlines in 50 caliber. Does the conical just fit on top of the powder or does a powder wad go in between the powder and conical? I use 100 grains of pyrodex with the 250 and assume if I shoot a 500 grain conical I need to be around 70-80 grains of loose powder. Can you help me select a good conical? Thanks fellas.

http://muzzleloading-bullets.com/ind...es/Page319.htm

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/tbs_mlbullets.htm

Of the 2 above I prefer Bullshops because Dan sizes the bullets to your specs. Anywhere form .500 up to .5045 in the .50. His prices are also better than the NE bullets. If you order from Dan ask for pure lead and #2 lube. You will have to slug your barrel before you order.

I use a unlubed felt wad over the powder because I get better accuracy. The same is true with lower powder charges. Accuracy falls off when I use more than 80grs of powder and it seems to be at its best at around 65-70grs.

First thing would be having a gun that shoots conicals well. Most will but there are some that because of the design of the crown or some other factor do not. If your gun is a 1 in 28 twist it might shoot better with one of the shorter conicals, like the UC short design. It is a good idea to slug your bore and get a conical that is close to the land to land measurement. If you know someone you can get a few from in the right size that would be a good place to start. Many like an overpowder wad when using one of the hotter powders like 777.

MZ are just like center fire rifles in certain ways. You never really know how a particular bullet is going to shoot in a particular firearm until you try it. Some are finicky, and some are not.

Same thing with bullet weight, bullet length, sabot or not, and with a wad or without a wad. The only way to know is to try them. I have seen slow, deep cut round ball rifled barrels shoot conicals very well. So you have to try it first.

I find it pretty hard to beat pure old 3F BP when shooting conicals. However I will admit I have not tried shooting conicals with BH-209. I can't bring myself around to paying that much for a container of powder that is not even a pound. But I have shot a good bit of T-7, and Pyrodex. They shoot well, but I can still get good performance from plain old BP.

If you are only shooting to 50 yards then supreme accuracy is not your main goal. It is aways a good thing but not paramount.

Buy a good heavy conical. You will soon learn that they are far more dependable and accurate way past 50 yards. And will flat knock the snot out of game.

As suggested above, sized conicals are by far the best choice for hunting. Just remember to slug your rifle at both ends, not just the muzzle. This is where you will see a big difference in the quality of the barrel you have(if you can slug both ends). Tom.

Great advice guys, but I must be stupid what is "slugging your barrel"?

I have 1 in 28 twist and some 1 in 32 twist guns. I really think my 1 in 32 twist gun with a 24" barrel would be a great conical shooter. What is a good conical twist gun?

The old rule of thumb used to be a 1-32 or 1-38 twist was always considered a conical bullet rifle. But the Whites for instance are 1-24 twist. I wonder if it has more to do with the rifling and the way it is in the barrel. Such as depth, etc.

The way I have slugged my barrels may not be the best way but it is how I do it. I take an oversize round ball or conical and tap it to get it started down the bore. Once in I push it back out from the other way and I can measure the land to land distance with a caliper.

That seems good flounder I will try it. I am also an archer and have tubes of wax for bow strings and wonder if I could shove that in the barrel and shove out and measure. I can do both and see, I expect the lead ball to hold true. Thanks fellas I will try and post what happens.

Cayugad, on the Whites do they have a deep rifeling? My 1 in 28" just does not seem "deep" enough to stabilize a conical or is it related to how much powder one uses. Meaning less powder and more time to stabilize, I know it may be a millisecond before it comes out the barrel but I'm thinking the longer it stays in the barrel the more time it can stabilize.

To be honest ... I have no idea. I just shoot them.

What guns do you want to shoot conicals out of?

The shallower the rifling the better(to an extent). Shallower rifling yields less bullet deformation. Thus better acuracy from a less deformed bullets.

Optimum twists are between 1in18 to 1in36 for bullets. But as I said earlier the slower twists will work also. Just experiment.

As far as casting an MZ, there are several ways. I normally just do it with my lead ladle that I use to pour bullets.

First make sure the bore is oiled well. Then push several patches an inch or so into the riflings with a 16D nail. 20D nails are better. Push the patches down the shank of the nail until they rest on the back side of the head of the nail. Then push these patches down the barrel. Once you are satisfied that there is a good obstruction of the barrel then pour the lead down the barrel(about an inch or slightly less thick). Then let it set up. Take a pair of pliers and pull the nail. You can also do that, and I recommend doing that to the breech end also. If you have access to the breach end. Just use a longer nail. And make sure you have the barrel oiled well. No problems.

It is best to use cerrosafe to measue your bore. but I have done several with pure lead. You can buy a piece of Cerrosafe from most supply houses. It is reusable. Tom.

going to be trying .459 405gr dropping at 406 and 408. sizing them to .454 for my .45 cal win apex.

I haven't posted here for quite a while. been lurking though! Haven't been shooting or hunting much. But, if anyone wants any Bullshops 460's or 400gr UC shorts in .504 diameter, I have a bunch. I'll never shoot them all. PM me, I'll get back w/ya, may take a while cause I'm in the process of moving. Cheap too!!
Thumper 50

pm sent
Art

All the deer I have shot with 50 and 54 cal Maxiballs have come home with me. I shoot them over 100 gr loose pyrodex and they shoot accurately within the distance I can use my peep sights. Recently I've been shooting an in-line with 350 gr FPBs and they perform well on deer too. Nice to have a scope to size up a deer, though I don't seem to shoot over 100 yds.

Big, "slow", full-bore bullets have been killing deer for many years. Marketing and profit margins are the real impetus behind most "improvements" in the hunting industry.

When loading does the conical need to be tight to the bore? Meaning should there be a good amount of force to load? I have seen my uncle load a 58 caliber minnie in his civil war gun and it just fell to the bottom to the breach, I understand when fired that bullet expands and catches the rifeling, I assume the conical needs to be loaded well and no air between the barrel and the bullet. Does anyone know where there may be a site to show the proper loading of a conical? Sorry with all the questions but I have never shot conicals.

The ones I shoot load with not much more than finger pressure. I use my thumb as a short starter and they go down very easy. I swab with alchohol between shots but a lot of shooters do not.

In my guns, MaxiBalls were basically a slip fit until the forward band contacted the rifling. Then it needs a little force to get that band into the barrel. After that, they slide down pretty easily. Even the MaxiBall design obturates a bit upon firing, before it heads down the bore.

I pre-size FPBs for my Genesis by pushing them nose-first down the bore and out the breech. They then load easily with fingers and just slide on down the bore with little pressure. I make sure to seat them with firm pressure once they contact the Pyrodex charge. Pyrodex likes to be compressed.

The T/C Maxi-Ball 370 grain, or Maxi-Hunter 350 grain, are a good choice. T/C recommends a Bore Button, or Wonder Wad over the powder charge for a fast twist barrel. (1 in 28") 90-100 grains of FFG Goex, or Pyrodex RS will do the trick.