sabotloader

I buried this deep in one of the other threads but I thought I would bring a copy out front where it might get more observations.

I bring this out because - i have just gone through much of this same experiance inthe last year and a half. I gave up what I considered the best bullet in the workd to move to a newly developed bullet, that I actually think holds more promise. I am old, it is very hard to move an old person try something he has been using all his life and EXPERIMEMT with something new.

Well any way... I think this will expain a little bit

I think the real difference in the two bullets (XTP - Gold Dot/Deep Curl), because really they are basically designed to do the same function, is age.

At one time Round Balls were considered to be the advancement of the age, in fact I would believe that are still some folks out there that truley believe that. I have not done the math to figure out how old Round Balls are, but from the round balls of lead we do have a popular saying "make a big hole"

XTP's are certainly an advancement over round balls, although again some folks would still disagree. XTP's still do the job as demonstrated by several people and the know reputation that XTP's have harvested more animals in the US than and other bullet, and they continue to do so today as there remains more people entrrenched in shooting them than any other bullet. My question or observation is that they might be the Round Ball of our time. I think one gentleman said he had been using them for 31 years (I may have misread that). So I would consider the XTP 'old technology'. Now old certainly does not mean 'bad' no more than the Round Ball being old is 'bad'.

New materials, new technologies, new ideals, new methods - always create problems amoung the old establishment, especially when the old has worked so well for you in the past. And as compared to what you might have used in the past the XTP, price wise and availabilty was certainly the better of other choices.

I consider the the old named Gold Dot and now the named changed Deep Curl to be an advancement in the method of making a more humane and tougher bullet. I do not know who invented 'electroplating' or why they did inventent it. But for me, 'electroplating' and then mastering a way to do economocally electroplate copper to lead (creating a bonded bullet) has been a huge advancement in the durability of a bullet. It partially took away the need for the Nosler Partiton, designed to keep the lead in the copper. Next when Speer computed a way to control expansion, not as effectivley as a Nosler or a Barnes, but far better than the normal lead copper bullet it set the Gold Dot/Deep Curl ahead of most copper lead bullets of the time.

It proved so effective for Speer, and I give a lot of credit for this to the handgun hunting folks and us, the muzzleloading community, that Speer developed a whole line of Gold Dot/Deep Curl bullets both for centerfire and handguns (the Fedreral Government and the court systems promted the name change from Gold Dot to Deep Curl).

From what i have found testing, shooting, and a limited amount of harvest with the Deep Curl, the more modern technolgy, is by far the better bullet to humanely harvest animals with. I am not the only person to come to this conclusion. We still remain the minority as it is extremly hard to move people when they are entrenched - I was one of them I know.

I am a Ford person, I will always be a Ford person - Dodges and Chev's and their little sisters GMC's are not as good. See what i mean and i mean what I say.

I write this reall hoping not to start another war, but as an explanation...

ADVWannabee

I don't know enough about any of the bullets to make an informed opinion. I do know that I am looking for the bullet that knocks them down the fastest. If that is a newer bullet than whatever it is I am using, I will switch. I think the problem is, proving a new bullet is better.

For example, I use the Nosler Partition in my 30-06 and it has knocked down almost every deer I have put it into. The handful that ran haven't gotten out of sight. It would be hard for me to switch bullets with performance like that. But if someone can show me that another bullet will stop even more of them from running, then I would switch.

I don't have that same experience with blackpowder yet. The doe I shot several years back almost ran just out of sight but it was a pass through with good blood trail. The 4 ptr I shot last year got away with very little blood trail that quit after 100 yards. Apparently I didn't get a pass through. I was using a pack of Knight hollowpoint bullets. I switched to Hornady SST this year but haven't gotten to see how they perform on deer yet. If the Deep Curls are better, I would switch for sure.

sabotloader

ADV

I am not sure it is about switching, and I certainly would never switch from a Nosler to a Deep Curl, but it is more about at least trying some, first on targets for fit and accuracy and see if they are even worthy of trying on an animal.

I made this same decision from Nosler to Lehigh - it was not easy.

Grouse45

You are 100% correct.

WV Hunter

Hey Sabot

Good thread. Technology can be a good thing...and tinkering is not a bad thing, and can certainly be fun. For me personally, once I find "the" load that works for me on paper and in the field (m/l or rifle) I close the book. I guess I'm old school, mabye I'm entrenched, or maybe I'm just lazy. Whatever it is...I don't see how it could get much better than what I have right now. I am not naive enough to think I have the holy grail though, I'm sure there are some awesome products out today. I have had 100% success with what I use today, so I personally have a real hard time justifying a switch.

I honestly don't know a thing about all this new stuff....I use a 16yr old mk-85 with #11's, pyrodex, and knight 260gr jacketed bullets. I've killed 12 deer and one fox with my gun in the last 16yrs. Everything I've ever shot at. Never lost one, and rarely do they run far. Several have dropped on the spot, and most have very good blood trails if they have run. My buck this year went 40yds shot through the heart, good blood. My gun on paper will shoot as good or better than most centerfire rifles with these bullets and 100gr of pyrodex.



I'm curious as to the new bullets out today, and may try some at some point. My life is just so busy the past few years (kids in high level sports) that I have subscribed to the "if it ain't broke - don't fix it" philosphy.

I look forward to learning more about what is out today, and what most folks have had alot of success with.

MountainDevil54

I basically made the hard switch from powerbelts "Although i do shoot a ton of the range still!" to Thors. Less drop, equal accuracy to powerbelts, maybe a touch tighter in certain rifles of mine, outstanding performance on game. Hell any bullet that goes through 1/4" of metal without deforming is going to be an amazing bullet on heavy bone.

cayugad

What you need sabotloader is ballistic gel to test these bullets in. That is where you get some excellent information as to penetration, expansion, wound channel, etc.

The problem with a company coming out with a new bullet is people are set in their ways. I know I sure am. Say to me that a round ball does not kill deer and you get my dander up. To those that believe that I think they are taking shots the roundball was not intended to make. Which brings us to the point of new bullet design. If something works or worked for them, they are hard pressed to say... well I will hunt with this instead.

I wish I was in Falcon's situation. He can hunt hogs all year long, and the meat does not go to waste, but he could also be the worlds greatest bullet tester. He could test bullets to see about accuracy, wound channels, knock down power, etc. And at the same time have fun hunting hogs. And getting rid of the critters from what I read. That is one reason when he makes a post, I am always hounding him about how the bullet did on the hog. Because I have heard, hogs are tough to kill. So that means the bullet has to work.

I was once told that the government used to test bullets on sheep. Whether this is true or not, I will not say. But again, live fire tests beat all the speculation by leaps and bounds.

I had terrible experiences with Speer bullets when I first shot them. I was shooting a Speer.44 caliber GDHP 270 grain (I still have some). And they were real accurate out to about 75 yards. After that I could not make them group for some reason. That's why when Semisane was telling me about the 300 grain Deep Curl I had such a hard time talking myself into trying them. I have excellent luck with a .44 caliber .430 300 grain Hornady XTP. They are accurate, and seem to hold together well. Also a lot of people hunt with them. So are the Speer better then the Hornady?

Accuracy wise they are equal so far. I have not done media tests with the Speer so I better not say one holds up better then the other. And to this day, I have not shot an critter with a sabot. I always seem to be holding a roundball or conical shooting rifle when I hunt. As Saboloader said... old habits are hard to break.

sabotloader

WV Hunter

Exactly my point... I am one that normally adhears to that very point - strongly. Even though i have made the switch from a great bullet (the best at one time) Nosler partitions to the Lehigh's - my supply of Noslers is on the shelf and ready if I can get the Lehigh to fail.

But had I staunchly stuck to the theory I would have never tried.. in fact if I stuck to the theory - i would not have a computer - a cell phone - four wheelers & all the other things that I have that have been an improvement on what I thought was just Jem-Dandy in the past...

Think about it.... but think rationally... where would be be if we did not follow a path of possible improvement, whether it be small or huge. The best car I thought ever had was 57 Mercury with a 312 today I would be hard pressed to say that it might be as good as anything, and yes it worked and worked well when i let it go I really did not have to - I just saw improvement.

But, on one of your other point - some time is certainly necessary.

And there is nothing wrong with an MK - I just got one awesome gun and yes I did move back in time.

ronlaughlin

Here is the media.







Here is the .430 300g XTP which was found in the bottom of the third jug. It's pieces weighed a total of 250g.












Now, here is the 300g Deep Curl, which weighs 262g, and penetrated through 4 jugs.

MountainDevil54

Corey posted this over on my forum about how to make your own ballistic jell. IMO it looks very promising!
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powergui...-gel-t1420.htm