Heads Up! Generation II Lehigh is comming...
04-23-2010, 09:11 AM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Heads Up! Generation II Lehigh is comming...
Test #1 of the new Lehigh Generation II Knight Breech Plug.
Been gone this past week to Missoula for some training, when I got back today I had a package with a NEW Lehigh Generation II breech plug in it.
The new plug is suppose to help in a couple of areas. It should provide a better primer pocket depth to reduce blow back from the primer area. It should also provide a better 'headspace' fit to the bolt face.
I could not resist the urge to try the new plug this morning in a 'primer cycling' test. I installed the plug in what i call my tightest fitting gun and in the loosest (not a word I know - but you know what i mean...)
From there I cycled 9 different 209 primers through both rifles. I cycled the longest primers I have the Winchesters, 2 types, and the shortest primer the Remington 209-4. I also cycled the CCI 209's both the 'M' and the regular primer. These primers are a bit fatter than the others... The M's fit and pulled out just fine, the regular CCI 209 were snug going in and did require a small tug to get then out but they came out easily enough. I am confident a little use of the BP will polish and smooth the primer pocket to the point that the CCI-209 regular primers will work just fine.
Remember everyone, these plugs are machined to fit a true Knight DISC Elite or Extreme. If you try to use them in others in the model line, they may not fit as well. I have found Knight has some very wide tolerances in their manufacturing process. Now on the other hand it is my belief that they will work in may of these other Knights but you will not know for sure until you try.
Here is a pic of this mornings efforts....
Hope to shoot both this afternoon and tomorrow....
Been gone this past week to Missoula for some training, when I got back today I had a package with a NEW Lehigh Generation II breech plug in it.
The new plug is suppose to help in a couple of areas. It should provide a better primer pocket depth to reduce blow back from the primer area. It should also provide a better 'headspace' fit to the bolt face.
I could not resist the urge to try the new plug this morning in a 'primer cycling' test. I installed the plug in what i call my tightest fitting gun and in the loosest (not a word I know - but you know what i mean...)
From there I cycled 9 different 209 primers through both rifles. I cycled the longest primers I have the Winchesters, 2 types, and the shortest primer the Remington 209-4. I also cycled the CCI 209's both the 'M' and the regular primer. These primers are a bit fatter than the others... The M's fit and pulled out just fine, the regular CCI 209 were snug going in and did require a small tug to get then out but they came out easily enough. I am confident a little use of the BP will polish and smooth the primer pocket to the point that the CCI-209 regular primers will work just fine.
Remember everyone, these plugs are machined to fit a true Knight DISC Elite or Extreme. If you try to use them in others in the model line, they may not fit as well. I have found Knight has some very wide tolerances in their manufacturing process. Now on the other hand it is my belief that they will work in may of these other Knights but you will not know for sure until you try.
Here is a pic of this mornings efforts....
Hope to shoot both this afternoon and tomorrow....
Last edited by sabotloader; 04-23-2010 at 09:34 AM.
04-23-2010, 01:37 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Generation II - Test 2 - Shooting
Decided to run to the farm this morning and do some shot testing of the new Lehigh Generation II breech plug.
I decided to shoot the new DISC Elite - 45 cal as the first test rifle. Further I decided to shoot the dirtiest load combination I have. So I loaded up some T7-2f, touched off by a Winchester T7 primer. I ended up shooting some really old dark brown Knight 4045 cal sabots - just cuz I wanted to use them and save some of my good MMP - light tan sabots.
First off let me give you my perspectives of this testing. Both of the stock Knight ignition systems will allow blow back to reach up and eventually burn your scope. Both of the Knight systems leak a lot of blow back into the breech area. The goal, again my perspective, of the Lehigh plug was to significantly reduce the amount of blow back seen in the breech area and back onto the scope.
The Gen I plug and primer adapter solved the scope problem right out of the box, even the Gen I plug reduced the amount of blow back into the breech area, but for myself and others it was not good enough. Come-eth the Gen II plug.
I think Lehigh Dave would flat out tell you that he can reduce the blow back to ZERO if he had your rifle. I can tell you I can do the same thing for each of my Knights using a Lehigh plug. The PROBLEM - Knight manufacturing tolerances, they allow a large range of tolerances, which in the normal world id OK because the gun functions well and safely.
The Generation II plug is made to fit and work well in 90% of the true Knight DISC Elites and Extremes made. Is it perfectly clean in all Knight rifles with all the different primers - NO! But it is significantly cleaner than the Knight offereings.
Test #2... was to shoot the new plug and see if it were worth the expenditure... After my trip to the farm i can easily reply - for myself - it is definetly worth it.
Here are some pictures to show my trip.... The first tens shots with the new conversion were with T7 and Winchester T7 primers.. and anybody that has shot them can tell you how dirty they can be. The last eight shots were taken with 110 grains of BH-209 and for the first 6 shots I used the suggested Federal 209A's - the last two shots were ignited with the meager Remington 209-4 primer.
Here is a group of pictures showing todays activity....
In this gun... is it 100% Blow-Back free - NO... but it is far better than previous BP's. I beleive it will even be cleaner in my DISC Extreme which is a tighter gun than is this Elite.
I decided to shoot the new DISC Elite - 45 cal as the first test rifle. Further I decided to shoot the dirtiest load combination I have. So I loaded up some T7-2f, touched off by a Winchester T7 primer. I ended up shooting some really old dark brown Knight 4045 cal sabots - just cuz I wanted to use them and save some of my good MMP - light tan sabots.
First off let me give you my perspectives of this testing. Both of the stock Knight ignition systems will allow blow back to reach up and eventually burn your scope. Both of the Knight systems leak a lot of blow back into the breech area. The goal, again my perspective, of the Lehigh plug was to significantly reduce the amount of blow back seen in the breech area and back onto the scope.
The Gen I plug and primer adapter solved the scope problem right out of the box, even the Gen I plug reduced the amount of blow back into the breech area, but for myself and others it was not good enough. Come-eth the Gen II plug.
I think Lehigh Dave would flat out tell you that he can reduce the blow back to ZERO if he had your rifle. I can tell you I can do the same thing for each of my Knights using a Lehigh plug. The PROBLEM - Knight manufacturing tolerances, they allow a large range of tolerances, which in the normal world id OK because the gun functions well and safely.
The Generation II plug is made to fit and work well in 90% of the true Knight DISC Elites and Extremes made. Is it perfectly clean in all Knight rifles with all the different primers - NO! But it is significantly cleaner than the Knight offereings.
Test #2... was to shoot the new plug and see if it were worth the expenditure... After my trip to the farm i can easily reply - for myself - it is definetly worth it.
Here are some pictures to show my trip.... The first tens shots with the new conversion were with T7 and Winchester T7 primers.. and anybody that has shot them can tell you how dirty they can be. The last eight shots were taken with 110 grains of BH-209 and for the first 6 shots I used the suggested Federal 209A's - the last two shots were ignited with the meager Remington 209-4 primer.
Here is a group of pictures showing todays activity....
In this gun... is it 100% Blow-Back free - NO... but it is far better than previous BP's. I beleive it will even be cleaner in my DISC Extreme which is a tighter gun than is this Elite.
04-24-2010, 05:10 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fair Haven, NJ
Posts: 146
sabotloader:Thanks for the report !
I intend to use a Lehigh plug/adapter in both my .45 & .50 Elites using BH209 exclusively. The Lehigh vent liner with a flash hole size of .034 should solve my cold weather ignition problems with BH209 ... I felt the Knight NFPJ flash hole was too small at .030 - .031. Also the length of flame travel looks to be much shorter in the Lehigh plug compared to the Knight NFPJ "domed" plug.. again that should help with BH209 ignition.
In your testing, what particular primer functioned (i.e. inserted and extracted) and in general was the best fit with your Lehigh plug ?
Thanks...Rob
I intend to use a Lehigh plug/adapter in both my .45 & .50 Elites using BH209 exclusively. The Lehigh vent liner with a flash hole size of .034 should solve my cold weather ignition problems with BH209 ... I felt the Knight NFPJ flash hole was too small at .030 - .031. Also the length of flame travel looks to be much shorter in the Lehigh plug compared to the Knight NFPJ "domed" plug.. again that should help with BH209 ignition.
In your testing, what particular primer functioned (i.e. inserted and extracted) and in general was the best fit with your Lehigh plug ?
Thanks...Rob
04-24-2010, 07:46 AM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
rt_con
I only used 3 primers yesterday... Winchester T7, Federal 209a's, and Remington 209-4's. I will use others as I get to do more shooting, which I was suppose to do today - but the weather has gone bad.
You might be interested in this observation of mine... Even though Western and even Lehigh says to use the Fed 209a or the CCI209m with black horn... I have continually ignited, instantly ignited, 120 grain loads of BH, with any primer I have used. It is my belief that the Lehigh vent liner makes that possible.
Let me do a little more testing before I declare that...
One thing to remember the primer pocket is 0.195" deep.... and in some Knight Extremes/Elites that is going to be a tight fit with Winchester primers a good fit with the Federals and a looser fit with the shorter primers. And then again with other Knight's it could be just the opposite.
I only used 3 primers yesterday... Winchester T7, Federal 209a's, and Remington 209-4's. I will use others as I get to do more shooting, which I was suppose to do today - but the weather has gone bad.
You might be interested in this observation of mine... Even though Western and even Lehigh says to use the Fed 209a or the CCI209m with black horn... I have continually ignited, instantly ignited, 120 grain loads of BH, with any primer I have used. It is my belief that the Lehigh vent liner makes that possible.
In your testing, what particular primer functioned (i.e. inserted and extracted) and in general was the best fit with your Lehigh plug ?
One thing to remember the primer pocket is 0.195" deep.... and in some Knight Extremes/Elites that is going to be a tight fit with Winchester primers a good fit with the Federals and a looser fit with the shorter primers. And then again with other Knight's it could be just the opposite.
04-24-2010, 08:53 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I get different results with the Gen I in 3 different Disc based rifles. The Gen I works great in the GMB54, its ok (needs improvement) in the Extreme 50 and pretty dirty in the Eilte 45. Although ignition is very good in all of them i really like it in the Elite 45 in terms of ignition.
The Gen II might be too tight in my GMB54 since it is very tight with the Gen I. At first the bolt would not close but i didnt have the BP good and tight. I was going to take it out again this weekend but the weather wont cooperate. On my last outing with the GMB54 and Lehigh NFPJ Gen I it handled max charges very well and primers fell out fine. I use mostly Win209s so that could have an effect since they are the longest.
I will be thrilled if the Gen II is as clean in my Elite 45 and primer removal is as easy. Most of my long range/fun sessions are with a 45 and it will be a huge plus for me.
Cant wait to give the Gen II a try.
The Gen II might be too tight in my GMB54 since it is very tight with the Gen I. At first the bolt would not close but i didnt have the BP good and tight. I was going to take it out again this weekend but the weather wont cooperate. On my last outing with the GMB54 and Lehigh NFPJ Gen I it handled max charges very well and primers fell out fine. I use mostly Win209s so that could have an effect since they are the longest.
I will be thrilled if the Gen II is as clean in my Elite 45 and primer removal is as easy. Most of my long range/fun sessions are with a 45 and it will be a huge plus for me.
Cant wait to give the Gen II a try.
04-24-2010, 09:21 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Gm54-120
That is exactly the problem... Knight tolerances - not that they are out of line industriall, because they are not they work for them and helps keep the costs down, especially when you are competing in a very competitive market.
But, because of the margin of tolerances, it is difficult to be build a universally clean plug for all bolt action Knights. Lehigh has changed their application statement to reflect these tolerance differences. From all the information collected it appears that the Generation II plug should work very well in most of the Knight DISC Elite and Extreme models manufactured after the "Original' DISC. Other models built and offering the Extreme bolt it may be a toss-up. The Knight DISC original even with the Extreme bolt conversion does have a significant difference in the depth of the breech plug compartment in the barreled action. This difference does not allow the plug to achieve the proper primer depth in the Lehigh BP. Scott, and on the other end it appears that the GM54-120 has more shallow breech plug depth so you are are able to insert the primer deeper into the plug and get a better blow back seal. I have a Knight DISC MHC and the Lehigh works very well in it. So I am thinking it will work in most MHC's but I am not sure about the initial Master Hunter - but probably????
Another bit of history... in the new Lehigh Generation II plug the primer pocket depth has been set at 0.195" the Generation I plug was set at 0.245". For my 5 now 4 Knight DISC's this is really 0.005" of an inch longer that it needs to be, but to cover 90% of the Knights out there this measurement should work and work well. In my tightest gun, a combination of bolt length and breech plug pocket depth in the barrel, I need a primer pocket depth of 0.188" for that gun to be 99% blow back free. Two others take a 0.190" and the last needs a .0192" primer pocket. The 0.195" number should allow everyone nearly 85/90% blow back free operation.
Do not know if the Lehigh would agree with that, but that is what I think...
I know one thing.... it is a ton easier to clean up the gun after shooting with a Gen II plug... Cayugad would argue that it really does not matter because cleaning a ML is a "labor of love" - from there 'no comment'
mike
I get different results with the Gen I in 3 different Disc based rifles. The Gen I works great in the GMB54, its ok (needs improvement) in the Extreme 50 and pretty dirty in the Eilte 45. Although ignition is very good in all of them i really like it in the Elite 45 in terms of ignition.
But, because of the margin of tolerances, it is difficult to be build a universally clean plug for all bolt action Knights. Lehigh has changed their application statement to reflect these tolerance differences. From all the information collected it appears that the Generation II plug should work very well in most of the Knight DISC Elite and Extreme models manufactured after the "Original' DISC. Other models built and offering the Extreme bolt it may be a toss-up. The Knight DISC original even with the Extreme bolt conversion does have a significant difference in the depth of the breech plug compartment in the barreled action. This difference does not allow the plug to achieve the proper primer depth in the Lehigh BP. Scott, and on the other end it appears that the GM54-120 has more shallow breech plug depth so you are are able to insert the primer deeper into the plug and get a better blow back seal. I have a Knight DISC MHC and the Lehigh works very well in it. So I am thinking it will work in most MHC's but I am not sure about the initial Master Hunter - but probably????
Another bit of history... in the new Lehigh Generation II plug the primer pocket depth has been set at 0.195" the Generation I plug was set at 0.245". For my 5 now 4 Knight DISC's this is really 0.005" of an inch longer that it needs to be, but to cover 90% of the Knights out there this measurement should work and work well. In my tightest gun, a combination of bolt length and breech plug pocket depth in the barrel, I need a primer pocket depth of 0.188" for that gun to be 99% blow back free. Two others take a 0.190" and the last needs a .0192" primer pocket. The 0.195" number should allow everyone nearly 85/90% blow back free operation.
Do not know if the Lehigh would agree with that, but that is what I think...
I know one thing.... it is a ton easier to clean up the gun after shooting with a Gen II plug... Cayugad would argue that it really does not matter because cleaning a ML is a "labor of love" - from there 'no comment'
mike
04-24-2010, 11:07 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I can understand the "labor of love". Cleaning my LK93 doesnt bother me a bit but it is a bit simpler design to clean. Ive never really care about cleaning but i do care about how soon i have to clean it.
When it gets so bad primers wont fall out or takes up "pay by the hour" range time in cleaning time...Then, yes i do care and most of my shooting is at targets. About half is at pay by the hour ranges too. Luckily i explained cool down time ect to the local range master and i get a discount.
If 90% of my shooting was hunting i would just use FPJs or OEM plugs and i wouldnt care at all. Im spoiled on BH209 now and the accuracy/extended range times it provides with a good breach plug.
My Extreme 50 will likely be used mostly for hunting with a modded FPJ plug but i really want the Elite 45 to be cleaner and very BH209/range time friendly.
Scott
When it gets so bad primers wont fall out or takes up "pay by the hour" range time in cleaning time...Then, yes i do care and most of my shooting is at targets. About half is at pay by the hour ranges too. Luckily i explained cool down time ect to the local range master and i get a discount.
If 90% of my shooting was hunting i would just use FPJs or OEM plugs and i wouldnt care at all. Im spoiled on BH209 now and the accuracy/extended range times it provides with a good breach plug.
My Extreme 50 will likely be used mostly for hunting with a modded FPJ plug but i really want the Elite 45 to be cleaner and very BH209/range time friendly.
Scott
04-25-2010, 04:21 PM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Southern Iowa
Posts: 226
are knights really that dirty? I haven't had a chance to shoot my new disc extreme (will this weekend though). I just ordered the knight nfpj plug because I want to try BH209. Is the knight plug really dirty?
04-25-2010, 04:29 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
josh...just josh
Only your personal test will tell for sure, but all 4 of mine using a Knight NFPJ are really dirty... Dirty to the point you will not get the primer to fall out of the primer adapter.... Others are very satisfied with their Knight NFPJ's....
Only your personal test will tell for sure, but all 4 of mine using a Knight NFPJ are really dirty... Dirty to the point you will not get the primer to fall out of the primer adapter.... Others are very satisfied with their Knight NFPJ's....
