Hornady 250 FTX
 

This has always been a problem for me with Hornady bullets. It started years ago when I was hunting with a Hornady .308/200 Round Nose, shot from a 300 Winchester Mag.

I shot two elk with this bullet and both time I found the copper just under the skin on the entrance side and of course they never exitied. Yes both elk were harvested, so yes I gues the bullet worked but i certainly would not trust it.

When I moved from centerfire to muzzleloader the first bullets I tried were XTP's and the experienced continued. Not always did they strip but on occasion they did. Of course after my ML discovery of the the problem I immediatly switch to Noslers as I had done even for centerfire hunting.

I was shooting some 250 FTX's the other day at the farm and today when I set the target out I found this FTX in the trough in the ground. Shook my head... but I picked it up for pictures. Yes, I know shooting this bullet into wet soil if tough on a bullet but I am not certain howm much tougher it than shooting throught the hide of a bull elk - especially if you strike a major bone.

Fore myself Hornady's are good for shooting paper but I never really trust them when shooting a game animal.

sorry for the heavy yellow color - that is what I get for using a yellow back ground paper....

Sabotloader,

How much powder were you using, and what was the range the bullets were impacting the soil? Me & my hunting buddies have always had very good results with XTP's of various sizes and weights as long as the velocities weren't in the "magnum" range. I had core/jacket separation a couple times- these were on high velocity impacts (2000 fps+) at close range with the 200 XTP. My friends that use the .452 240 grain and .429 240 grainers have never had (to my knowledge) this problem. Of course they are pushing these bullets at no more than 1750 fps out of the muzzle.

I have no experience on game with the FTX. I did shoot one with the 200 SST and it performed decent, though I wasn't able to recover the bullet to see what happened to it.

oldsmellhound

Well see that is the point... The FTX is a pointy bullet and is meant for long range hunting. I was shooting 110 grains of T7 and the velocity was running in the 1900 FPS area.

I am really not trying to change anyone's minds that is totally up to you. What I am stating is that I have never found a Hornady that will stay together in difficult situations.

Here is an experiment that I have fired in the past using Hornady's and Speers. These Speers were shot into the same medium and held to gether just fine.




I repeated the activity shooting Hornady XTP's...



Notice I also say some but not all Hornady's stripped. Enough did strip and have stripped for me that I have not real faith in the bullets. I really thought the FTX might be different as they were designed to fly faster and harder... Not the case

I think a majority of Hornady users would agree with your and your findings - it just that I consistenly find the opposite on occasion.

kinda hard comparing apples to oranges really not a fair comparsion since the speer is a bonded bullet and the ftx is not

turk1270

Correct and half the cost of the FTX... and just a bit more than than a XTP.

That really is my point more than anything else - there might be a bullet out there that has better construction than the XTP or even the FTX a reasonable price.

Again not saying that the Hornady will not work because we all know that it will, but I really would feel more comfartable hunting with a bullet that does not come apart under tough circumstances...

shoot in into a controlled source, like a bucket full of sand. that should give better results.

The 250 FTX is nothing more than a 250SW with, supposedly, a little harder lead or thicker jacket depending who you talk to. As you know it is not bonded.

You know I shoot almost exclusively Hornaday bullets and if someone asks me about something to shoot deer at 100-150 yds and further they top my list. But for elk, NO. I would recommend the 300gr BONDED SW but not any of the lighter non-bonded bullets. Will they work? Probably. Most of the time. But there are better bullets for the job.

I've posted pics of recovered 200SWs that look a lot like that, the jackets stripped on the far side after going through both shoulders. This is one reason that, for DEER, I like the 200s better as they are longer-for-caliber and therefore hold together better.

The opposite is also true. I shot a deer with a 300SW, hit no bone, and from the wounds it was very clear I got zero expansion. Great elk bullet, too hard for deer.

If you want to shoot a pointy bullet at elk, try the 325gr. It is a nice long, heavy bullet. If the one I shot lengthwise through a deer as 20 or less yds with a MV of 1950 fps could survive with so much retained weight, I would not hesitate to shoot an elk with one.

Personally, I have never been a fan of the 250 SW (and now FTX for that matter). It is in a popular weight range but both the 200 and 300 gr versions are better bullets in almost every way (BC, terminal performance)

spaniel

My only point is that I have yet to find a Hornady that will not strip itself (I have not shot any bonded Hornady) I shoot them at paper and will continue to shoot them at paper but I feel it is somewhat a crap shoot when using them for hunting. I also believe they are more than 95% effective, but for just myself I would not depend on a bullet that strips the lead from the copper, or sometime expands and sometimes does not. With those unkowns to calculate into the varibles - I would rather shoot an economical bullet that those varibles are not a part of.

Again I am not just saying this about their ML bullets only - i have had the same problem with their .308's and .277's.

Just got a 2010 Hornady catalog, I see now that Hornady is producing a new bullet that could be the best thing they have done. It is called a GMX, a solid metal - you should not have to worry about lead stripping from that. Might be awhile before we see them in a caliber that a ML can use but at least they are getting started.

Do any of you guys have any experience with the .430/265gr. FTX. I shoot them in my Endeavor and they are really accurate but I havent had a chance to use them on any game yet or shoot them into any phone books. I'm pushing them with 110gr. of BH209. What kind of MV do you think I'm getting. You think this bullet will hold together better than the 250.

SHulion

Please remember shooting into this medium is extremly tough on a bullet, much more so than the normal shooting of a big game animal, so I would say that shooting any of the FTX's would provide you with good results.

I would guess that 110 grains of BH would probably provide you right @ 1900 fps. And I totally agree about their accuracy - they are accurate...

Sabotloader

Now that you mention it, I think I had a hornady SST strip out on me a few years ago, but it happened on a whitetail. I shot this buck with my .270 using the hornady SST (130 grain) lightmagnum and he was about 40 yards out. I hit him a little far back and I actually had to put a second one in him to put'em down. When I was cleaning him, I found a couple pieces of the guilding metal jacket close to the exit wound from my first shot. I estimate the bullet was moving at around 3200 ft/sec when it hit him which may have been more than a non-bonded bullet can handle without coming apart. Also, the SST is supposed to be a rapid expanding bullet which, being unbonded, may have had something to do with the bullet coming apart at high-bullet speeds. I kept the metal jacket and if I can find it, I'll take a pic and share it.

Sean

'Long as they penetrate a bit before exploding, there shouldn't be a problem. Get farther out and they're going too slow to separate but will still expand. Win/win

The easy solution if the shape is desired is to use the bonded version.

The game really makes a difference. I shoot the 200SW but most of my friends shoot the 250. After many years and a couple hundred deer between us (generous midwestern bag limits and a crew of meat hunters trying to save their crops) it is obvious a) that the 200 holds together better at any range, and b) even the 250 kills the deer you just find fragments more often.

It really is possible IMHO to use too hard of a bullet on deer. The ones I recovered that stripped do not bother me, it did not make a difference in their ability to put the deer down and was a good sign that I was getting enough expansion.

I agree that the frequency with the 250 is somewhat high. I consider that particular bullet a little frangible which is why I recommend either the 200 or 300 to people.

Personally, I have found my deer to go down quicker with the SW than they did with the HTP/XTP design. Those were/are good bullets respectively, but in my experience hold together a little too well, some more expansion would transfer more energy to the animal.

Like I said, if it's being used on an animal tougher than deer it's another story. Bonded or different bullet for sure.

This brings up a test I want to do this summer assuming my daddy duties leave enough time. I have been saving gallon milk jugs forever and have quite a pile. Unlike newspaper at, water makes a very uniform medium that unlike gel is not temp-sensitive. I plan to shoot a few bullets into lines of jugs at various ranges out to 500 yards or so and see how they perform.

spaniel

I totally agree the 200 is far better at holding together than any of the others. Of course I am talking about the 200 XTP - it can be stripped even blown up but it takes some doing...

Shoot! the shape has nothing to do with it - it is the performance on animals that really counts. Especially when making a difficult shot. I want a bullet that does a very clean humane harvest and one that I do not chase the animal after being shot. If a animal runs 100 yards after being shot the bullet and the shooter did not do their job. In all the animals that I have shot I can remember one 60 yard run by a big bull and that ticked me off but I was shooting a 308 at the time.

Proper expansion is a strong point but 'not the point' - I normally shoot a 45 cal bullet that expands to near 3/4" that is all it needs because that allows the bullet to continue to drive at a decent velocity and creates a tremendouse amount of Hydrostatic shock.... and normally exits the other side even on elk. I shoot another bullet that kinda doesn not expand at all it just leaves a 45 core of a bullet acting like a 'Keith Nose" that accomplishes the same thing by causing 'hyrostatic shock' - create enough internal shock and you will over ride the animals 'flight' response.

IMO only - there are much better bullets out there for harvesting game than Hornady - and again that is just my opinion - but I do not trust them and I do not want to track the results. I also would agree that a LOT of animals are harvested very well with Hornady's - I just don't want the one that isn't... Hornady went to the interlock for a reason.

Then asking another straight up question - has anybody had any experiance with a Sierra stripping? When I was big into centerfire hunting - after my experiances with the Hornady's I did switch to Sierra and I do not recall ever having a Sierra strip even from the Win Mag....

The reason I brought up shape is that if you don't care about BC and don't plan on shooting much over 100yds, why is a SW/SST/FTX on the top of your list anyways? They are my main bullets but when I'm hunting closer situations there are other better options.

I'm just trying to put some real-world experience with the bullets on game into the discussion here. I've shot dozens and dozens of deer with these Hornaday bullets, I'd conservatively estimate 40, may be as high as 60 as I quit counting a long time ago. Typically 3-5 per year. I'm just saying your concern about their ability to fail and do a poor job putting down game don't manifest themselves in my experience. I have never lost one, and never had one go over 150 yds. I cut one's heart in half this year and because he was so close he covered about 100 yds at a dead run on adrenaline alone.

I'd be much pickier as to what I throw at an elk, but I have yet to find a ML bullet that would really cause me concern on deer. I think most of it is marketing and us trying to judge a bullet's performance based off tests that don't really replicated shooting animals very well (very tough to do!).

With so many good bullets, if you don't trust Hornadays you have plenty of options left ;D

spaniel

Believe me they are not on top of any of my lists... I just have a box and know I would never use them for hunting - so thought I would shoot them at paper - testing a BP conversion. I didn't know they had even came apart until two days later when I was out running another test and I looked in the shot trench and there it lay - right on top about 1/2 way up the trench.

I would also suggest that 200 yards is my personal high range - i do not do enough shooting at ranges longer than that to have the confidence go past that.

And honestly Andy i have no problem with them being your main bullets... they certainly would not be mine in a ML or a centerfire from the experiances I have had with them.

Why in the world would you even consider a bullet that allowed an animal to 150 yards a success. That is a lot of suffering that is not necessary. I can not stand an animal going more than 20 yards and even that ticks me off. I have hunted since a kid and i also have no idea of the number of deer I have shot, I know I am at 25 or 26 elk and yet the longest animal I have tracked that I can remember is 60 yards (other than one deer). Here you just can let an animal go far or you really could loose it in the terrain we hunt.

I certainly do not rate the bullet by the number of animals that I fail to find - I rate them by terminal performance -do they create enough internal damage to over ride - the flight response... 10-15 yards is enough distance for me. The deer I shot two years ago at 25 yards went about 5 ft - he did not have a heart lungs or anything in that cavity - it had all turned to jello - and the bullet did not hit all of those organs but it certainly casued a tramatic effect on them.

I have often heard of the deer death circle but have never seen it before except 2 or 3 years ago when I shoot a nice 5x5 Whitetail with a Hornady 300 grain XTP Mag @ 10-15 yards... He ran the circle - i guess that it what it was - we found him 300 yard down the gulley laying the the next skid road down. Now that I really felt bad about. There is no reason for that other than the bullet went straight through never slowed down enough to expand I guess - but he had two nice neat holes back of the shoulder and ahead of the diaphram.

I agree... that is exactly why I went to Sierra's in centerfire... the only reason I shot these FTX's was a guy gave them to me because they did not work that well for him. I figured I could always shoot them at paper, and heck! if I had not seen that one laying on the surface i would not have said a thing about it - but it just confirmed what I thought i already knew.

Remember the differences in species and terrain we hunt. When you shoot a whitetail that knows you are there and is nervous, on flat, wide open fields, the blast of the shot will spook them and they take off at full speed. How long does it take a whitetail to run 100-150 yds at top speed? Just a few seconds, no unneeded suffering required. Like I said, my buck this year ran 100 yds and change with no recognizable heart left, lungs tore up, liver hit, and the bullet continuing to his back quarter. Nothing short of an RPG would have brought him down any faster. I once shot a button buck broadside from 6 FEET with a shotgun slug, liquifying the chest, and he made it 90 yards on adrenaline alone.

Perhaps out west where deer see fewer people they don't run as fast or far. My limited experience with muleys and whitetails in MT is that they seemed a lot "tamer" than our deer here, who are probably each spooked 3-4 times a day the beginning of the season and looking for an excuse to high-tail it.

Deer shot at longer ranges, where the sound of the shot does not give them the adrenaline shot and they are less sure of what is going on, typically don't run much at all. All of my 200yd+ shots have been DRT.

The only way around here to guarantee you won't have a deer run 100 or on occasion 150 yds (although shorter is more typical) is to anchor them with a shoulder shot, which I don't like to do as the meat damage is more. Bullet type doesn't make a significant difference. Since the deer would usually need to cover 400+ yds to get out of sight, it is not a concern for me.

Mike is that the FTX designed for the cartridge gun or the FTXml designed for muzzle loaders as a replacement for the SST?

Lee

10-4, but for me it makes no difference - I was just using it to make holes in paper and plywood. Can not imagine using any of the pointy's for hunting - I just do not shoot far enough. The 200 yard mark is my personal max and here in northern Idaho those shots are rare...

The reason I ask is because I was sent 250 of the Bushmaster design .452 -250 gr and I have not started to do any testing on them yet. It might make a difference on what I try to do with them. I do know the lead in ML version is softer and I am guessing that the 10-4 means they were the ML version. Lee

All of the FTX bullets were designed for cartridge guns. The 250gr is designed for the Bushmaster, with a MV of approximately 2200 fps.

Personally I'd look past the 250 and straight to the 265gr or the 325gr if recoil does not scare you. I have a box of the 265gr but have been so happy with the 325gr that I have not shot any of them yet.

Lee

Sorry i did not read your post that well, I thought you were telling that there was two types... The ones that I have are not the ML variety. Because of that I would assume they could be shot at a higher velocity than regular ML speeds.

Shooting 110 grains really is a mid-mild range of power.

The only problem I have is Hornady has not figured out a way to keep the lead in the brass. I know they went to the 'interlock' to aid with that problem - but I am not sure that solved it. Also I would like to remind me that I an not saying every shot results in a stripped bullet even in my torture test, and the same thing applies to shooting a game animal - very few shot bullets will result in a stripped bullet - I just do not want to worry about it all...

spaniel

So can you say that neither of these two bullets will strip themselves on occasions?

This was an interesting post placed on another forum... as a answer to my original post.

Mike
I have been shooting the 240gr XTP Mags for about 20years, I have never lost a animal shot with them. Some drop on the spot, some run for 100yds. But as mentioned above where I Hunt the Whitetails are extremely skiddish and it's nothing to run 100yds in a matter of seconds for them.
I just happened to have a few 240gr XTP Mags that I recovered after the kill and (Yes) both were completely stripped of there metal jacket. But what I have found is once they strip the metal they expand and cause excessive damage to all the organs, and still exit the animal.
Believe me Im one for a quick humane kill and I have never seen one of the deer I shot suffer, most run and collapse as there running, if they even run. I also have never tried any other bullet as these XTP Mags have never let me down or gave me a reason to change, besides leaving fist sized holes in the animals there accurate.
We dont have Elk here, mabey if we did I'd have different results for you, but Whitetails are our biggest game. I've blown deer sideways into trees with the XTP Mags, had them run over 100yds+ and had them collapse on the spot. Shot them out to 180yds with complete pass throughs, and 99% of the time they do pass through.
I guess the more and more I think about it I have found many stripped jackets from the XTP's at the rangs when I dig for them, but I always figured once they hit the animal and stripped the jacket and the lead hit and blew apart it cause more trauma and damage than one that just passed through clean??? Almost like the Foster Type Winchester 12Ga. Smooth Bore Slugs, they hit a animal, and shattered inside causing extreme damage, most deer hit with these collapsed on the spot.
Im always for trying new and better, but I have no reason to change from the XTP Mags, a 100% kill and recovery rate is hard to beat.
(BP)

I will run a few tests when the weather moderates here we have been having some nasty weather. Actually hunting I do like the Gold Dot for short range [100yds or so] for long range a modification of the 200gr Lehigh is very good I use 140 gr BH with them and not only do they shot very flat but I have got 1.5 inch groups at 150 yds which is about as good as I can shoot with a 9 power scope.
If I use the SST or FTX type bullet for hunting I normally use the bonded version Shock Wave with 140 gr of BH they are as accurate as the 200gr Lehigh but not as flat shooting, I have use them a number of times and have confidence in them. I can match the 2300 FPS according to my crony so I feel I need the bonded or the bras bullets [ I am sure the copper ones would do well to I just have never gone in that direction].
I wish they would come out with a bonded version of the FTX.
I do know that they have been extensively tested in a cartridge gun [ Bushmaster @ 2200FPS] on boar and showed up well.

heres another SST story,
well I just got my meat back from the butcher who cut up my buck that I shot with the flinter. He also had the bullet that was wedged in the hindquarter. I was using Hornady SST-ML Sabot's, 250 grains. I started using these after discovering the old ones I had been using for years didn't shoot out of my Inline at all! I used to use T/C Express Mag Sabots, in 240 grains. About the only difference is the T/C's are a hollow point and the Hornadys have a plastic tip. Anyways the picture will show what happened! The buck was about 10 feet away looking at me when I shot, he started to turn and it struck him off center in front of the shoulder, going through one lung, the liver and all the way back to the hindquarter. I know he lived for about 30 or 35 minutes after I shot because he turned and ran back into the drive and my buddy who was driving watched him lay down and then watched him laying there until he died! I shot three other deer with them this year, the first was a doe in almost the same situation, I watched her turn and run and lay down about 50 yards away dead. There was little to no blood. The next was about 35 yards away, broadside and I shot through the heart, she went about 50 yards also, but had a good blood trail because of the two holes, the third doe was 90 yards and I shot a high shoulder shot and killed her in her bed, no bullets were recovered in those three deer. Anyways just a little rant, I know deer can be hard to find after a muzzleloader hit because of little blood trails, I think this could be the reason! By the way I never had a problem with the T/C's in my flinter, and I haven't shot a deer with the Hornadys from my inline, don't even know if i'll try it now!

Here are both the T/C's and the Hornadys, with the one in the center recovered from my buck.

I've come to the conclusion that two people who use the same bullet will often have different conclusions. Doesn't matter which bullet it is either. Bottom line for folks is if you feel comfortable using them, use them. There are bad stories out there about every bullet if you search hard enough. True, some have more than others.

I've been shooting Hornadys since 1991 in both centerfire and ML. In 19 years, I've recovered 1 bullet. I can't even begin to count how many deer I've shot with them in those 19 years but would assume it's around 75 or so. The longest track job I ever had was actually w/a 30-30 using 150g soft points. 75-80 yards with an exit hole the size of a golf ball but he just wouldn't stop.

Here are some 300g 44 caliber xtp that i found on the ground behind my usual target location. It seems i have shot around 150 of them in the last couple weeks or so. The ground has a mild uphill slope behind the target location.





Two of the bullets are jacket only; one of them is lead only; six are jacket and lead together. It seems that if one were to set out to shoot rocks and dirts there is a better bullet choice than the xtp, but if one were intending to shoot deer, the xtp probably is an OK choice.



Here is a view of what we saw the other day, from over 100 yard, after the fella shot a 44 caliber 300g xtp at a deer.

ronlaughlin

Thank you for posting the pictures, your examples are exactly what i think I am trying to relay. Some times the bullets function really well and other times they may come apart, and that is the one thing that i worry about - is when they do come apart. I would also agree with most people that use them most often you will get your harvest even when they come apart. I would just prefer to use a bullet that does not come apart, but has the capabilities of providing complete 'Terminal performance'.

I tend to believe that a lot of the problems come from velocities out of the proper slot for the particular bullet. Some people like loads suited to the kids and use a bullet suited to a serious load, some just the opposite, thats the main reason I do my own testing. I am man sized and never have paid much attention to recoil so I load the load the gun shoots best and often the best load is not the first one you run into that shoots good if you run the powder ladder and there can be an other surprise about what load shoots best at 200 yds compared to 100yds. Leer

I have stripped XTPs on rare occasions. The deer still died. Just what is your point?

I am sorry I ever thought it reasonable to assume relaying the findings of having shot 40-odd of these bullets into game animals had anything relevant to add to a theoretical discussion of what may or may not happen when shooting said bullet into an animal (complete with pics when available).

I will keep my mouth shut until I am able to educate myself as to how bullets will actually perform on game by shooting them into dirt piles.

Now, now boys. Play nice. :kiss:

Hey, I just thought of a solution. Each of you purchase a small hindquarter of beef. Shoot an XTP into it, freeze it immediately and ship it to me. I will examine each and render a definitive opinion.

Damn, I'm not just a peacemaker, I'm frickin BRILLIANT!

spaniel

There are a few real life game experiances in my thoughts also, but the biggest thing I have to offer is I am not trying to condemn the bullet(s) you are using. Shoot if they work for you shoot away. Heck, people think I am nuts for using a bullets that are designed to come apart as they pass through.

All my intentions were, was to show what I have experianced with Hornadys that I have tested and and relate experiances that I have observed when i was using Hornady's both in centerfire and ML. Again I add NOT ALL HORNADY"S SHOT performed the strip act - a majority of them did not. I just can not predict when one might.

I also have suggested that I believe there are better terminal performers out there for me. I am not trying to declare your bullets bad, shoot! you need to use what you have confidence in, as I do.

The only reason that I am considering the switch from Noslers is because of the progressing lead ban... that will rear it's ugly head again this year in some states as some medical professionals and politicians push it.

If you got em - shoot em

You wouldn't feel guilty about taking advantage of the situation lmao!

It also depends on what you use them for; I like the FTX for gong and Knockdown shooting and the Gold Dots and Lehigh for hunting. I even like the 245 PB for coyote hunting they really smear a coyote. If we all used the same thing some people would be out of a job. I used to use XTP's and still have about 500 of them 250 gr laying around and if I had a hard time getting bullets I would not even think twice about using them. Most bullets will do the job fine, some of us want the deer on the ground in a hurry some want that hole coming out the other side to be sure of a good blood trail. I think the most important thing is hitting them in the right place and getting at least enough penetration for a clean kill. I personally have never tried the copper bullets but its clear they will do a good job because a lot of people get good clean kills with them.
When we discuss bullet structure and what this one or that one did under certain circumstances its not a criticism of what some body uses; its just data that we are trying to understand and assimilate so that we can make better choices.
No one should feel that we are attacking their choice.

'An eat all dem boolet fragment?!! :happy0157:

Damn Semi, I had to go in the other room to stop from Laughing! You Kill Me!
(BP)

All I know is for the last 20 years, every Deer My Wife and I shot with a Hornady XTP Mag ended up in My Freezer and we ate real good!
(BP)

No need to wait for more knowledge before you choose your hunting bullet. Simply remember these simple axiom:

a. When hunting rocks and dirts, don't use xtp.

b. When hunting deer, xtp is OK.