Best ML for the money
 

OK, I know there are many great ML out there. What in your opinion in the best side lock on the market. And what is the best inline on the market.

When I say best I'm talking about.

Appearence
Fit and finish
Sights
Accurate
availabilty of parts
availabilty of accesories
Price
Best for conicals
best for sabots
Ease of cleaning

Also, if you have a favorite that may not be considered the "best" please let me know. For me it isn't always the quality or price that makes it the best, but the fact that a perticular gun or bow just gives you the confidence needed to make the shot when the moment of truth is in front of you.

I haven't shot many different sidelocks..but I do cast a vote for the T/C Hawken as a capable classic! And if I were to go get a new inline--I'd get a Triumph! Though I have no trouble with my Omega.

Living where you do, I would look for a White Model 97 Ultra Mag or a Super 91. There is no better conical shooter and sabotloader proved to us they are good with sabots as well. The fit, finish, and quality of the rifle is hard to compare to. Also White has opened up their parts shop now. Although I never had a lot of problem getting anything for mine.

This White will do it all.

In traditional rifles I agree, a T/C Hawkins with a .54 caliber barrel would be my choice.

What Cayugad said is very good advice, I hunted CO. with a Ml numerous times and The White is by far the best conical shooter. Its made for conicals (which you have to use in CO.). Probably have to find a used one but there are lots around, Bunch of fella's just got new ones for $225.
RC

Yep! think Cayugad hit it square...

Don't know about the sidelocks but IMHO the best inline right now is the CVA Accura.

Thanks, I already have a T/C Triumph, it shots pretty good, but it is not made for conicals and thats what we have to shoot here in Colorado. I also have an old T/C side lock, I'm not sure of the model. The gun shots like there is no tommorrow. The problem is that the damm thing breaks the spring and rod that run the hammer ALL the time. I mean it used to break about every 4 shots! I have fixed the problem ......I hope. However I'm not sure I want to hunt with that gun, I just don't have alot of trust in it.

The CVA Apex is another that will do it all but the White is probably better suited to your needs. The UltraMags are super. Finding one can be a real problem.

T/C BlackDiamond......mine will shoot anything I put in it and shoot it well out to 100yds. You should find one used for less than $150.

Hard to beat a White Rifle for conical shooting. This is my Super 91 in .504.

I agree the Whites are the tops for conical shooting. One other that you might consider is the NEF Huntsman or Sidekick if you can find one. The rifle with the newly available MU breechplug and if you want to really make it great add the Hubbardoutdoors ramrod. It will shoot sabots and conicals nearly as good as the Whites. Cleaning is great also as it is a standard break action type. The triggers on all that I have seen are really smooth and light compared with most over the counter muzzleloaders. The MU plug gets rid of the plastic carriers and goofy breechplug wrench and makes shooting BH209 reliable as well as any other sub or real black powder. The Hubbard rod extends two inches longer than the stock rod, has the correct threads for accessories, has a relieved end for pointed bullets and is several times stronger than the stock rod. My .54 T/C Hawken is probably my favorite sidelock.

i really enjoy my CVA Accura. Powerbelts and thor conicals are what i shoot here in colorado.

Well I don't put much stock in shooting conical the only time I use them is when I hunt some of the states that require them. But since I do use them I have loads for the Triumph and the Endeavor that I can hit a golf ball at 100yds off the bench with; I have never understood why so many people think the whites are better I have not seen any groups posted that are better than mine.

Lee, unfortunatly that is all I can shoot here in Co. So I want a gun that does it well. that way when I go to MN or SD or TX, I don't have to swith loads. If it shoots well thats what I'll stay with.

Lee - you can hit that golf ball - - but can you pick out a certain dimple to hit? That's what we White shooters do. :s2:

I've been off this forum too long - it said the last time I visited in was 1970!

Big Paul - I'd vote for the White, too, but my experience with other brands is admittedly very limited.

Good Luck

Well Lee and Cayugad seem to know more about muzzies than I'll ever hope to know.
If you were to build a muzzy for target shooting what would you build? I'm thinking of using the old T/C that I have and putting some Creedmoore sights on it and giving it a shot. We have a BP club here in Southern Colorado that shoots out to 600 yards plus, that sound like fun to me.

Anybody done this type of shooting with a muzzy before??

Well, Lee.....post some of your targets and I'll post some of mine with one of my Whites. You seem to have an issue with the White rifles. Do you own or ever shot one??

Not trying to start an arguement...but if you've never shot one...I'd keep my opinions to myself.

BIG.PAUL

If you can find one... the White is the way to go. It is built like a tank, simple operation, easy to clean, easy to disassemble and to assemble.

The Model 97 has a 1/24 twist ( I think the 1/24 is worth a ton when shooting full bore conicals) and can shoot the longest conicals and it also can handle all of the sabot loads.

I have a m97 U-Mag and I can verify how well it shoots.

A lot of folks make a huge deal out of 'group size' but more important to me is how accurately the gun will shoot hunting in hunting situations. I guess my feelings are I did not buy a target rifle I bought a hammer to harvest animals with.... Now with all that said the White will shoot targets with anybody, with a huge variety of different projectiles.

Now the down side... Whites are old technology, they are a plunger type gun and not all are going to work with BH-209 if that is your choice of powder. There is at least one White that might though.

See this is a target I shot... I know it is not a conical and I guarantee you that Lee is a better bensch shooter than I - but the White did just fine...



The only difference between shooting these sabots and the 460 grain Bull Shops I shoot from it would be the size of the holes...

The Accura will shoot conicals with accuracy. Very good accuracy too.


247gr colorado thor. The Accura really loves 105gr pyrodex RS. 110 gives about 1 1/2" - 2" groups @ 100 yards.


The first 3 shots are to the upper right, that was with cooldown. The 2 in the black were rapid fire with no cool down,



Im just about 2 hours south of you, northwest of Trinidad.


Some powerbelts with open sights @ 100,



Check out the Accura though, its really a nice setup and a charm to carry around. I prefer the thumbhole.

batchief909
No I do not have any issue with White rifles, the one I had shot everything just fine, I have guns that I would rather clean than the White but did not really consider that an issue I clean every thing I shoot every time I go shooting.
Its this talk about them shooting conicals like there is no other gun that will and this business about TC not shooting conicals.
I just broke in a new Endeavor and this is one of the first targets I shot after I sighted it in. I always use conicals for break in. This particular gun likes all that I have tried well enough that I could hunt to 150 yds with them of course I try the ones I like and have worked before.

Well you DO apparently have an issue with the White rifles,,,,or maybe just their shooters?? This is the second forum I've seen where guys have asked about conical guns,,and when White was recommended,,YOU just had to comment negetively. :confused0024:

I'll stick with what works. This is a 5 shot group at 75 yards with the lousy White S91 witnessed by Nimrodder. No break-in necessary.

Lee, I wouldn't worry about what the other guy was flapping his jaw about. You know how it is, there are some guys that just like to ruffel feathers. I was thinking along the lines you were. I also do the same for break in with ALL my guns not just muzzy's. When I break in a new gun I only shoot lead bullets out of them for the first go around.

I have no problem with my triumph and conical, the thing will shoot tight groups all day long. The gun is also very forgiving when it comes to cleaning and loads. I can shoot it clean or dirty and get results that are close enough to call good. As a matter a fact I have never fire a sabot from any of my muzzy's, I wouldn't know the first thing about them.
I thank you for your knowledge.

Wow!! If you knew so much,,,,.......never mind. :happy0001:

No I don't know,"so much" as you stated. That is why I asked. Guys like Lee, Cayugad, spainel, and mountaindevil have probably pulled the trigger on more guns than I'll ever have the chance to shot. I have been reading there post to other questions for a while now and have learn they give good solid advise when asked. I wasn't looking for opinions... I was looking for knowlege.

"some guys that just like to ruffel feathers" and Lee has become one of them. Start to see too many "I didn't mean it THAT way" or "I have nothing against" but always a TC fanboy and you kind of get the idea that Lee likes to poke the fire a little now and then.

Gather up 10 randomly picked TC Encores and 10 randomly picked White Super91s or even 97s and fire test loads with heavy conicals of the right size for each. I don't think there is much doubt the Whites would win such a match with ease.

And the Whites will be easier to clean up properly afterward.

My first Encore would not keep conicals nor anything else inside a bushel basket at 50 yards. And that is the truth.

Now that's some nice shooting Batchief. I don't own a White but I plan on it someday. I missed out on the last sale. It seems to be almost an almost universally accepted fact that the White's shoot conicals like no other. Someday I will have first hand knowledge.
Art

If you don't want input from anybody else..I suggest you ask your questions in a PM to those you referred to. I've only been muzzleloading for 25+ years...so I don't know chit from shinola...:hail:

Thanks, UC.....but it just isn't worth the effort to type much anymore.

Art.....find ya one and buy it. UC can probably point ya in the right direction.

By the way,,,,,UC designed the bullet that made that one big hole.

Well I had tried to tell you this nicely before, but you seem to not be able to get so I put in a different way.

Shut the hell up and keep your opinions to your self. What people are looking for on a forum is infomation, not usless BS that any jackass can throw out.

UC I wish you lived close enough. that we could match what we have, it would be fun. As far as 10 of each goes I never had 10 of any one gun, I usually have a bunch all different and you are right about me being a TC fan over the last 5 or 6 years they have done well for me. I prefer sabots to but feel there is a time and place for all kinds . Lee

No problem Einstein.

Your English teacher must be proud of you....

Dude seriously, get over ourself.

Hey guys I think we can all get along.

Most of these rifles shoot better than we do. That's an excellent group batchief. Your pointing precision is at least 1/2 MOA and the rifle "HAS TO BE BETTER". Did you use the wadcutter "trashcan" for those groups? The wadcutter is an excellent target bullet and a very stable one in spite of the low BC.

When I go to the range I can't get that kind of group. First I don't shoot from a bench, I don't shoot with with bags, and I don't use scopes. I just can't point that precisely (under .5 MOA). Can't do it. No fault of my rifles.

I do have very good sense how well I will shoot while hunting though and that is what I am primarily looking for. What is my limit ... and then the challenge of the hunt is to get within that limit to take the game.

When I account for what I expect my pointing imprecision is, I am impressed though with my groups and am surprised at what a wide range of loads shoot well within the range afforded by my pointing imprecision under field conditions.

Most rifles shoot better than their owners can point. I think your targets say as much about the your abilities and the conditions under which you shot those targets than they do about the rifle itself. Granted one can't do that unless the rifle is precise, but if you compare that to another's targer who isn't as good a pointer then the whole difference may not be the rifle at all but rather the individual shooting the target.

There are are alot of fine muzzleloaders and while I don't own a White, I think I would count it among the best. I've never once read a complaint about a White by its owner, not once. And I can't say that about any other rifle except maybe the knights.

Those shots were from the bench utilizing sandbags. Underclocked designed a bullet he calls the "UC Shorty". I,,as well as a few other White shooters purchased the mould from Lee. This range session was just an attempt to find out whether the bullet would fly right.

As you can see....it did. UC can give ya more specifics on the weight,,,etc. Heck,,I've slept a few times since then.

You're absolutely correct, that there are other rifles that will shoot a conical. Knight used conicals to win the Manufacturer's shoot in Friendship for what,,,,5 or 6 years in a row??

Funny you mentioned that conical. I think its this 445 below and I was thinking of having Dan pour me some. An excellent design I thought with long bearing surface and short nose. Excellent design UC has there. What number is this Lee mold or does UC have the cherry?

For sidelocks I am partial to the TC Renegade 54 cal.

It was a limited group buy from Lee. I suppose Lee still has the cherry but I don't know what it would take to get them up and going on the molds again. I think we ordered 25 molds and those were all claimed from the get-go. My thinking was to design a bullet that would do well in both the Whites and the 1:28/1:30 twist rifles and it seems that was accomplished. Batchief's group was the first fired with the bullet so far as I know.

I think most of those molds drop bullets at about .505 diameter, some a fraction less and some a fraction more. Easily sized down to .501 if need be.

ps: Have Dan whip you up some to try. Can't beat his prices - makes casting them yourself almost seem like a waste. ;)

I normally just lurk here, but every now and then I feel compelled to jump in, especially when someone steps on their wanker.

I think maybe you should go back and read your initial post in this thread, YOU asked for opinions. I made it easier for you to see.


It looks to me, you had you mind made up from the start. That is too bad, because several people went out of their way to point you in the White direction. I would suggest you go back, open your mind, and read their replies again. There are other brands of individual rifles that CAN shoot conicals as well as a White, but EVERY White "straight out of the box" can shoot conicals better than any other brand as a whole. No CONTEST there!

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it! :busted:

:pcwhack: Awesome LOL!

Thats going to leave a mark! :D:D:D

We haven't seen a lot of Big Paul since last winter. Then he was busy stirring the pot telling everybody how horrible the customer service was at T/C. Now he is down on White's. Who will it be next??? I, for one, am sitting on the edge of my seat.