SwampCollie

I haven't black powder hunted in years. I shot the old LK-93 I got when I was in grade school over the summer... and she wasn't hittin on much (might hit a basketball at 100 yards if she had three tries. I was planning on putting a 209 conversion kit on it... but since Knight has gone under... I chose not to really fool with it and last week I picked up a new Omega Weathershield and topped it with a Vortex 3-9x40 w/ BDC reticle.

Here are the good issues... (read if you like.... what I need help with is bad issues... see below) The TC is shooting its tail off. I put a Limbsaver pad on the back, and was shooting 90gr of loose 777 FFG with a 240 XTP.... but I decided to try some blackhorn 209 yesterday at lunch time and put about 30 shots down range with various different bullets. I just stuck with 80 grains of powder and a W209 primer.... accurate is an understatement... especially compared to the knight. The TC with 80gr of blackhorn 209 and a 240gr XTP bullet is one holin' three shot groups at 50 yards and keeping them under 1.25" at 100 (I'm shooting off a shaky plastic table.. she can probably do better yet). I stretched it out to 175 yards to test that reticle and shes on at 175 yards using the suggested 150 yards mark... so she is clipping along right fair.

Last night... I shot a big doe I've been playing cat and mouse with all season long... had her in range four sep. times during bow season... always seemed to have a fawn or a tree in the way. Last weekend I had her broadside at 100 yards and in the scope when a lady and her dog walked into the end of the field 300 yards off and well.... that was that. Shot her perfect at 123 yards... she went about 25 yards and piled up.... so the TC Omega I am totally thrilled with!

The bad issues....

My girlfriend hunts as well (a lot)... and while she mainly bowhunts, she wants to kill a deer (still hasn't gotten one yet... in many years of trying). This is our first season together... and I suspect we'll have one in short order. I decided to try and make the Knight serviceable for her.... so I made a few upgrades....

I put a musket cap nipple in place. And upgraded to the newer style breach plug... I would have done the 209 kit... but those discs are not going to be around forever.... I suspect musket caps ain't really going anywhere.

New Bushnell Dusk-Dawn scope... basic and effective with steel Warne Rings.

Bought some new Pyrodex RS Powder.

Katie (girlfriend) had a chance to take a deer last winter during the late muzzleloader season in the mountains of VA. It was probably too far, but her god father encouraged her to try it. She was laying prone, shooting 150gr of 777... and the scope caught her between the eyes and actually gave her a concussion. She spent the rest of the weekend alternating between vomiting and passing out before she went to the hospital. This was before we were dating, but thats her history with black powder hunting.

So I decided with that in mind to keep the loads down low. I shot this gun when I was 9 or 10, and I remember it not kicking at all... I loaded up 60 grains of RS and got it on target with patched balls at 50 yards... no serious problems.

I bumped it up to 70 grains and thought that to be about right for her. I tried several different sabot loads, and the Harvester Scorpion 240s shot about a 1.5" group at 50 yards.... which is about as good as this gun has EVER shot.

I took it back to 100 yards.... and everything went to hell in a handbasket.

I set it about 1" high at 50 yards.... at 100 yards... the first shot was 4" low. I swabbed the barrel... reloaded and shot again.... and actually hit the bullseye.... I was pleased.. for a moment. I repeated the process and the bullet hit the upper left corner of the target.... making the whole group just under 7". I left the barrel to cool.... swabbed it.... tried again... and the fourth shot was centered about 3" above the POA. This is the kind of crap that this gun was notorious for over the summer with No. 11 caps and my old Select powder (thought that was the problem... powder was like 12 years old).

I know the scope is tight... and I know that it will group OK at 50 yards... it did it all morning long.

What in the world would cause a gun to do this??? Barrel heat maybe??? The gun only has one action screw.... and without it in... the recoil lug/barrel tang will slide about 1/2".... should I try glass bedding the thing... or am I just pissin' up a rope??? Maybe this is a true blue 70 yard deer gun and no more???

Breechplug

First off never let your girlfriend or wife shoot 150 gr's, unless she'e one tough moma. It happened to my wife, (she's 5'2" 109lbs) One Hunting Season she was with me and she had her shotgun and I had the ML, a Buck steppd out and her scope was fogged over from the rain, quickly knowing mine was clear as I just looked through mine at the Buck, I gave her my ML and told her to use it as the Buck was getting nervous.
Hesitant, she tried it. Bad mistake, scope caught her in the eye brow, missed the Buck and for the next 2 weeks I had to put up with dirty looks from women when we went to the store togeather, as everyone thought I did it!
Back to your ML, being that old are you sure the bore is in good shape, not pitted?
that's usually what happens when you lose gas around the Sabot, your shots are all over. You might not notice it so much at 50, but when you get out there you do. Also what bullet and sabot are you using, is the bullet a good tight fit? Is the powder new or old. 1 1/2" groups @ 50yds is'nt all that great, so at 100 mabey they open up even more. Did you try more load combinations? Even though the scope is tight it still may be in the scope. Or it could be just a non shooter at those ranges.
I usually fine tune @ 100yds, then check 50yds, just because your good at 50 does'nt mean you'll be on at 100 and further, a-lot happens as the bullet go's further and further. It could be one or more of these things or not any of them, if you try everything and it still shoots bad, get your girlfriend another ML, she'll appreciate it and so will you. Success to you both.
(BP)

Underclocked

Are those sabots loading real easy? If so, I would try thicker sabots before making any major changes. You might also try something simple like shimming the barrel up and away from the stock (a washer on the screw, inside the stock might be enough) to see it relieving stock pressure will help. Push that action toward the butt before tightening that single screw.

Make sure you are damp/dry patching between shots and be sure to wipe clean the crown area each time. I would suggest a thorough barrel cleaning before any further testing.

You might also try a different powder such as TripleSe7en FFg. Sometimes a simple powder change will work wonders.

The loose fit of the recoil lug to the stock does sound problematic. Possible to shim it in tighter just as a test? Perhaps a snug fitting piece of hardwood would do it?

SwampCollie

No doubt. Like I wrote.... this was before she and I really even knew each other. She was hesititant to even shoot a .22 this summer. She was bigtime gun shy. By the end of the first day.... I had her nailing with the .22... and breaking strings of ten straight clays with my lil 1100 20 gauge. She trusts me, and I don't intended to even test that trust. Thats why we are sticking with 60-70grains and shots inside 100 yards.


That was my first concern. I take exceptional care of my firearms... but I haven't always. This gun is about 17 or 18 years old. I have given it a good look over.... there are spots that look like they may have had some damage in the past... light... not bad. Its certainly better than my friends Encore... and his gun shoots right much better than this one. This 93 hasn't ever really shot great.

I shot five different bullets yesterday. Plus patched balls.

245gr AeroTip Powerbelts, 240gr XTPs (what my Omega likes so much), 300gr SSTs with Super Glides, 200gr SSTs, and 240gr Harvester Scorpions (which it seemed to like better than anything else).

What I noticed was that the Harvesters were a real beotch to slide down the bore... so yes.... the best shooters were very tight to the bore.... definately see the connection there. The box said they were 50% easier to load.... it would have taken a pile driver to load them if they were 50% harder.

Less than a week old.

Its about all the gun has ever been good for. Its acceptable (hardly) at 50 and I'd let her shoot one at that range now... but past that its too much of a crap shoot.

I didn't fool with any other powders... but I played the volume up and down some... no real difference other than in recoil and noise.

Its no german glass for sure. But I've got a Leupold bore sighter/range helper.... and the reticle wasn't moving. So I don't think its in the scope... this is the fourth different one that has been on it over its lifetime.


Certainly true. Considering that 100 yards for her would be a long shot anyhow... I figured I'd try them out at 50 and fine tune at 100. There is definately something happening.... because going from 1.5" to 7" over twice the distance isn't really sound in my opinion/experience. I've seen some dogs in my day.... but this one is a special case... mostly because I can't really figure it out.

Jcon72

SwampCollie, after reading through your message I was just wondering, how long did you have to wait for that woman to get within 123 yards for the shot?

SwampCollie

I think that this may well have something to do with it. I tried a couple different washers/gaskets between that lug and the stock... and it actually made it quite a bit worse... I could put light hand pressure on the receiver area and move the entire action and barrel. It locked up the best when it was just plain jane stock to barrel... thats what got me thinking about bedding it. I've bedded plenty of my own centerfires and it certainly helps.

I've been pretty meticulous about that. I spent the better part of a day on it over the summer... JBs.... Bore Bright.... the works. I don't let them get to that stage anymore... I hadn't messed with it in a couple years... so it did need TLC. The bore, save those rough spots at the back.... shines like a mirror.

I've been using a patch with T17, then four or five (using both sides too) dry patched between shots. Haven't brushed it... just trying to keep it from caking up.


Can I use other substitute powders with a Musket or No. 11 cap?

Breechplug

Well since you tried the Harvester's and they were a good tight fit I'd rule that out. I guess all that's left to do is try a different powder or as UC said try shimming it. It seems as if you have most everything else covered. I guess then if nothing else works than the 93 just will never be a shooter. If she's like My Wife a early Christmas present (ML) would make her happy. A good shootin ML will make her much more confident when the opporitunity arrives, and after her First Deer she'll await another hunt. And once hooked look out as if she's anything like my wife the competition begins. Let us know what you find out or decide what to do.
Best of Luck(BP)

bigtim6656

might try the black shockwaves everyone says there tight and hard to load that might help with the sabot if it is the issue.

UncleNorby

Try Hornady FPBs. They don't use a sabot. Then there are "old-school" bullets like maxiballs. I'll bet there is a load/bullet combination that will work out to 100.

flounder33

How about if you just let her shoot your gun.