RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Spaniel,
As far as the bullet being shot thru the shoulder it has already been done. The bullet went in the left shoulder and went thru the right shoulder sticking out the far hide. We didnt even need a knife to cut the bullet out, it was already halway out. This was at very close range. (20yds) We found four of the six petals in the chest cavity.

One thing is for sure, we all have different opinions on fragmenting bullets.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

No arguement at all. The people will determine that. And as we all know, you cant make everyone happy.:D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say...





Main Entry:
1frag·ment
Pronunciation:
\ˈfrag-mənt\
Function:
noun[/i]
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin fragmentum,[/i] from frangere[/i] to break — more at break
Date:
15th century
: a part broken off, detached, or incomplete
synonyms see part
[/align][/align][/align][/align][/align]Looks pretty black and white to me. Lehigh bullets most certainly are a fragmenting bullet no matter what.[/align]

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

This is a Gold Dot bullet that went through the off shoulder after passing through the ribsover the heart and through lungs of a 6 point buck it was pushed by 110gr and went about 4 inches into the dirt on the far side of the buck. it weights 157 gr and started out with 250 it droped that buck without a step ever being taken. Now if you want to call that fragmenting then you can say thats what I want. Since it lost almost 100gr I suppose that you could call it partial fragmenting. But it most certainly is not what some of us are calling fragmenting. Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

This is not meant to a reply to just Lee, but a very interesting article about Lehigh Bullets in the Guns 2009 magazine Special Edition. So after reading that - I am even more enlightened... So now maybe they are not as unproven as I thought...

Here is a composite of just a few of the pics... These are 45-70 bullets shot from a high class 45-70 and with a heavier bullet than a ML would use 375 grains. They started with copper bullets then found that the brass bullets worked better.



Last little thing - I can not believe they call that animal an ANTELOPE..

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Thanks, that's nice to know.

My "inflated" comment may have appeared more crass in writing that it was intended, if so please revise interpretation. All I meant was I think that in real life the advantages don't live up to some of what you are proposing, not that you're purposely misrepresenting or something.

Sabotloader,

Thanks for the article, that was interesting. I think when you say they found the Leigh superior, it appears (if my squinting read enough of the fine print!) that it was in terms of penetration. Now on African game we're talking a whole other goal of bullet performance than whitetails! In Africa, it has long been recognized that with many of those big tough animals penetration is king (back to my position that goal #1 is deflate lungs with a hole of whatever caliber). As a result, solid or hard cast bullets have long ruled the African plains.

Here I could actually see a real advantage for the Leigh. You get a bullet with a better BC, but the tip then shears to give you the equivalent of a solid, providing maximum penetration. A copper would not shear and would hold together impeding penetration, and a mushrooming bullet would not necessarily penetrate far enough. So when you're shooting a Cape buffalo or an "antelope" on steroids, I'll buy the argument being sold.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

spaniel

When I read this article I really did not know about the 'African' experiance, what i did have was some information on 45-70 shooters using this bullet on American Bison, Moose, Bear and i assumed deer and elk but i did know of any specific information. This article was a real source of information, not necessarily the answer to all of my questions because I still have some... + I need to prove to myself what I think I know.

sorry about the squinting and I know what you mean but my computer skills and my skills for transferring information are not the best. I think you and I are on the same page - the brass core of the bullet may be a bit stonger than copper and does offer better pentration and possibly does less meat damage than a full mushroomed exiting bullet, which is a concern of mine.

And I THINK that is exactly what will/should happen. I really wish I had taken a picture of the last cow I took. When i opened the chest cavity it was totally nothing but dark red jello. There is no way the the Nosler hit all of the organs in there but each and everyone of them had turned to jello - hydrostatic shock

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Your computer skills are fine, blame the message board interface. ;)

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

sabotloader
I don't have any problem with Lehigh Bullets in fact I like to try everything. I just wish we could do something to all be on the same page. One of us says something and it means something different than what was meant to half the people that read it. We just don't need the misunderstandings caused by unnecessary misinterpretation.
Fact is I like the Lehigh bullets better than the Barns all copper because they will do the same job with out leaving copper in my barrel. For me personally it will come down to what shoots the best at long range, my choice for big game will be between the Nosler partition and the Lehigh, but for deer I will likely use the Gold Dot. Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Lee

That really would be nice if we all spoke the same terms on some occasions, but each geographic area of the US and each state has a differen venaculars.... Very few speak/write in thsame terms. It might be better to wish that everything read should not considered in concrete and may not even be what you think it might be saying. Often a simple direct question about is mean might get a clearer answer. It happens to us all, I have been in classes in which the instuctor knows exactly what he is saying but the class often does not as he might be talking over their heads.... I am neither a ballistician (new word) nor a bullet maker - I can not use the correct terms and if I were the correct terms might not mean anything to you. Most of us, and not all of us, are just normal on the ground people trying to explain what the heck we are talking about in terms that mean something to us. And that term in your part of the world might mean something completly different.... tough problem...

And for me that fact had not even entered my mind...

And for me what you consider long range is out of my range and not necessary 80% of the time when I am hunting. 200 yards or there abouts is my absolute max with perfect conditions shooting a ML - shooting a CF that is a different story. Now the real fact, in the the 50 years I have been hunting in Idaho I can not even remember a handful of shots greater than 200 CF or ML. Even 100 yard shots are some what rare, I would bet the average shot might be 60-75 yards.

My choice has always been a Nosler, so much I would almost stake my life on them, but I have to say I want to at least try a Lehigh and see what I see. From that I will make other decisions.

For deer what could be wrong with the Gold Dot? it certainly is less expensive and I would bet on the norm it would be fine for elk also...