BH209 max charge
 

You are all evil ;)

Since I've already thrown out my "ain't broke don't fix it" stand by trying out the FTX for next season instead of the 200SW I've been shooting since they were introduced, I figured I might as well go all the way.

The bait of higher velocities with equal pressure with BH209 has finally got me to bite, I am going to try some out, despite earlier claims I was not interested and would not be baited. You guys are some good marketers!

So what is considered the max charge in .50cal Omega? I'll probably see how fast and accurate I can push the 200SW, 325 FTX, and 265 FTX to start.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I would go with the manufacturers recommendation. But if I were you, I would start with 100g by volume and work your way upward in 5g increments until accuracy begins to suffer. There's no sense in jumping straight to a magnum load if it's going to shoot like garbage out of your rifle.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

spaniel

Here is what I THINK I know.... TC still does not publish T7 loose loads in their manuals and still maintains 150 grains of BP or Pyro or T7 Pellets - which relates to 122.5 grains of T7. Of course and you already know that the newer Knight Disc series can shoot a 150 grains of loose T7 with some projectiles.

I have shot 120 grains of BH from my Omega. which drives a 300 Grain Gold Dot @ 1950 fps. I have not chrono'ed a 200 grain - wait a minute i think i did last week from a Triumph. Shoot! I did not put the target on Photobucket and i am in Kennewick so I can tell you my results -seems to me it was right @ 2300/2400 but do not hold me to that.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I would not go over the recommended 120 grains. Some are going way over, then don't know why their gun blows up. They have the potential of a bomb blowing up in their hands. If you need to go faster than 2000 fps, get a center fire. Muzzle loaders are supposed to befor short range. If we start shooting deer out to 300 yds, pretty soon we won't have a special season.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I've seen a lot of posts on this site (and other sites) of people with either Knight or TC rifles shooting up to 140 grains BH209. That doesn't necessarily mean it's SAFE, though- so I'd try a load like that at your own risk. I should think 120 grains is perfectly safe, probably a bit more with the Omega. You could call TC and check with them too.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

oldsmellhound
Do you consider it unsafe if you have your own pressure test equipment and stay below the 150 gr of pyrodex level? If so why? I am always willing to learn something new about safty. Lee

RE: BH209 max charge
 

spaniel

One thing to point out.... BH is not as effective with the smaller bullets creating that extra velocity as it is with the heavier. The progressive burning nature of the powder provides this unique charactersitic.

A month ago when shooting my Omega with both BH and T7-2f with equal charges of both and shooting a 200 grain XTP - i actually got greater velocity with the T7 than I did with BH - I do not remember the numbers but they are recorded at home. if you would be interested. That difference between T7-2F and BH goes away in a hurry with a 300 grain projectile the BH will create more velocity.

I beleive and i have not tested it to be a fact but if you were shooting like charges of T7-3f and BH and a 200 grain projectile the 3f projectile might be significantly higher.

If you have not seen them here are some numbers that show 3f to produce really close velocities with BH....

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html

If you fight the 'crud ring' then BH is the way to go if your pocket book can handle it.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I see....so you don't have scopes on any of your MLs? If you need a scope, get a centerfire. People keep putting scopes on MLs pretty soon we won't have a special season.

Point is, you are no one to claim your way is the only way. Nobody comes here to be told what to do.

For some of us, MLing is THE way to hunt....we don't just do it for special seasons.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Thanks...since I've never bought BH209 I did not know they recommend 120gr as the max load but I'll go with that. Unless I saw a lot more evidence to the contrary, I do not buck manufacturer recommendations.

I'm really looking at it more for the 325gr FTX I've played with. I get 1900fps with 130gr 2F 777. I have not tried 3F with such a heavy bullet, I tried it with the 200SW and actually got slightly LOWER velocities than 2F.

I have no crud ring with 25ACP ignition. The only reason I would stick with BH209 is significantly higher velocity at max charge. If a 300gr Gold Dot only goes 1950 fps, I may not realize that at 120gr.

lemoyne,

Any link to these pressure tests you mention?

Thanks guys.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

No,we are not able to to make them public with out incurring some liability.
There are several of us that do our own testing since the gun and powder companies have taken certain stands because of the laws that allow people to sue and sometimes win with out any real cause thats directly connected to what the suit is about. Lee

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Lawyers -- can't live with them, can't use them as backstops...

Gotcha. Too bad.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I use a 1x scope on mine. That is the law in ND. Which I think is great. I would rather use open sights, but my seventy year old eyes don't work that great anymore. I put a 6x Leupold on it for testing and off season shooting. Prairie dogs etc.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I am not trying to say my way is the only way. I am just saying I don't like people posting way over recommended loads on here. If you want to endanger your life, that is up to you. Do as you like. It makes other people want to do it. I just want to keep our sport safe.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

spaniel

Andy, i am not sure that BH has set a limit of 120 grains or not. When I said 120 grains, I was referring to the conversion factor for T7 to 150 grains of the allowed BP/Pryro limits that TC sets....

It is know and has been tested that that BH produces less pressure at any one time with a given projectile than does T7-2f and certainly T7-3f, however if you could capture the total pressures create by both powders from ignition to projectile exit rom the barrel - BH WILL have a greater total but if all things are equal will not reach the peak pressure at any one time that T7 does.

Shooting a 325 grain projectile with BH and the same weight of T7-2f -> BH should create more velocity, again because of the progressive burning capabilities. Shooting the same projectile with BH and T7-3f will produce a much less velocity difference. I shoot 90 grains - 3f from my GM-LRH barrel with 460 grain Bull Shops and it works great. But there are alot of folks that are shooting 3f interchangeably with the same loads of 2f. Not that Toby does everthing right but you can see he does it quite often and as a standard.

If you have been shooting 130 gr 2F 777 and you are comfartable there (and I would be) then shooting 130 grains of BH is going to produce less peak pressure than the T7 and as the bullets go down in weight of course the peak pressures of either powder goes down + less pressure created in a 50 cak barrel than a 45 cal barrel

It was not a 200 xtp that I shot the other day it was a 250 Speer.... Pro-Chrono placed at 12 feet...

Shots -> 1 2 & 3 -> 110 grain of BH (Weighed 73 grains)
Shots -> 4 5 & 6 -> 110 grain T7-2f (Thrown on site)
1. 1902 4. 1960
2. 1915 5. 1957
3. 1912 6. 1951

Again all of this is my take on the subject and it is not written in stone anyplace that I know of.

mike

RE: BH209 max charge
 

lemoyne,

All I was saying was that people that start exceeding the manufacturer's recommended load are doing so at their own risk. BH209 is a significantly hotter/faster powder than Pyrodex - so 150 grains BH209 does NOT = 150 grains of Pyrodex in terms of pressure and velocity. If your rifle is rated for 150 grains Pyrodex, then by all means go ahead and use it. Western Powders recommends a max load of 120 grains BH209. Can more be used in modern, high-quality rifles safely? Probably yes- but you need to have a very good understanding of what pressures your rifle is rated for, and equipment to test the pressures you are producing (which most people don't have).

Personally, if I shot BH209, I wouldn't go over 120 grains, just because I don't see that the advantages (increased velocity) outweigh the disadvantages (saftey concerns, increased recoil, higher price-per-shot). I'm not a big powder junkie - I usually haven't used more than 100 grains T7 FFFG, because I haven't felt the need to. But I know a lot of people like the push the limits in terms of performance - that's fine, but just be careful if you're exceeding what the manufacturer recommends.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

oldsmellhound
You are right as far as you go there are at least 2 of us that have some equipment in that categorie. The problem I find here is that TC does not rate there guns for 777 much less the newer Blackhorn And the manufactures recommendation must take things like the old CVA barrels that were made before they were bought out and reorganized. I always stay below the 150gr of pyrodex level of pressure but I use that amount as my guide and with Blackhorn which is a progressive burning cellulose base powder the level of pressure drops with bullets lighter than 250 gr so by adding a bit more powder it can be brought up to the same level which is where it happens to be most accurate in my gun.
The whole problem as I see it is the manufacture not getting out some recommendations. This leaves a lot of people wandering where the limits are. Lee

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Lee

Aaa! well said

and as the projectile moves up the barrel there is more room for the gas in the bore and hence the pressure will be relieved and it does happen faster with a lighter bullet.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

That was the point of this thread -- what IS the recommended max load in an Omega? What you posted instead was that certain velocity and range limits should not be done with a ML. Two different things.

I agree with you totally in that people need to stay within safe loads -- as has already been mentioned, once you go beyond Goex or Pyrodex the manufacturers are POOR at providing us with adequate guidance, which leaves us wondering.

My days of manufacturing ML pistols from 2X6s, dryer springs, and structural 1/2" pipe and shooting them with Red Dot stolen from my grandfather's old 12-gauge shells are 20 years behind me. I like having 10 fingers and 2 functional eyes. I am also a scientist, however, and therefore prone to experimenting and probing the (safe) limits of my equipment. All I wanted to know is what is the max charge that is safe, and I've gotten some great info from some great and knowledgable guys....more that the lawyer-fearing manufacturers are willing to give me, which is what creates unsafe testing.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I have a T/C Omega. I like the BH209. I use 110gr and a 250grain Barnes TMZ. At 100 yds I am very confident. Great groups. At 150 it opens up a bit but I can still hit a milk jug at that distance off hand. I dont think I would try a shot further than that. I use a Williams Peep. I went through a whole 10oz container. Just go to the website and read what it says. The only bad thing I found is that after 10 or so shots at the range and you have to clean the flashhole or the primer fouling will result in a hangfire.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Spaniel,

You mentioned using the 25 ACP conversion. I could not reliably ignite BH209 using the 25 ACP conversion breech plug in my NEF Huntsman. You may need to switch back to the factory 209 breech plug and use shotshell 209 primers to get the most from BH209..

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I didnt mention that the recomended MAX LOAD for BH209 is 120gr no matter what ML you have. I have read on this site that some folks are going over that amount. I dont think its a good idea. Just my $.02.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Powerfisher

Then on in that same vain Hodgdon recommends only 100 grain loads of their powder on their site also.

Really 100 is adequate but there are a lot of people shooting more...

From Hodgdon:

RE: BH209 max charge
 

That is exactly what I plan to do. Even if it works in the summer, I would NOT chance it in season...

RE: BH209 max charge
 

I would like to know at what point does the powder just get blown out of the barrel and not burn. If you put too much powder in the barrel, it wont do any good because it wont have time to burn before it gets blownout of the barrel. Do the faster burning powders (FFFand subs) have this problem? If they do, why overload your ML and waste powder?

RE: BH209 max charge
 

One of the nice things about having a chronograph Powerfisher is the ability to accurately determine your maximum usable charge with any particular bullet.

For example, with my short 24" barrel Omega X7 I shotstrings of three shotsover the chronograph with 300 grain Gold Dots and T7 FFG and averaged the velocity of each shot string.With 85 grains I got a three shot average of 1575 fps. With 95 grains I got 1624. With 105 grains I got 1719. With 115 grains I got 1710 (less than with 105 grains). So I now know that bullet maxes out at around 105 grains with T7 FFG in that gun. If I did the same thing with FFFG I would expect it to max out a little higher, maybe around the 115 grain level.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

There is a difference in powders to black and most subs are constant burn powders Blackhorn is progressive burn there is a serious difference there once confined the constant burn powders will burn at a certain maximum rate while a progressive burn powder changes its burn rate with the amount of pressure. Lee

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Thanks. I just had the AAAHHAAAA moment. Someone once told me that this wasnt rocket science. But the more I learn themore I have to knowso im glad its not rocket science cuz im not a rocket scientist. Had to purge some important information from my memory but thats OK. Its worth it, it was just my...ummm......

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Amen to that.We got a 1 shot CF 45/70, just don't have to reload cartridges, which is expensive and a lot less fun that 1 shot is all ya get MLing.
Chap

RE: BH209 max charge
 

This will be my first season hunting with a ML. I have thought about hunting with it all season and not just for an extended hunt. I like to shoot it. I slow down and concintrate more. I would have to scope it. Decisions, decisions.

RE: BH209 max charge
 

Ask a stupid question and you may get a stupid answer. I am sorry , but just I couldn't resist thatone.


Really why would you come to this forum and ask such a question? Wouldn't going to the horse's mouth, so to speak, be more reliable? Please don't think me a pot stirrer, I am just one on the sideofsafety also. This is one of the reasons I will never post my reloads or ML loads on line without qualifiers! I always tell folks to go to the manufacturer and get their loads recommendations. Sure they may seem a little on the conservative side, but wouldn't you if you werein their shoes? Tort is alive and well in this day and age!

You must admit as you do that as a professed scientist that you are really putting yourself out there when you start listing experimental loads on this forum with or without qualifiers. I would worry that someone out there would take your word as gospel and hurt themselves or damage their equipment. This could happen I suppose.

I think I should quit before some of you guys try to tar and feather me (which I am sure will happen.) But talking plainsense should bemore the rule and not the exception around here.

Shoot safe!

RE: BH209 max charge
 

In my first post, I asked what the max charge was. Not how much you could stuff in, only what the max charge was. I've never bought any to read the label, so I think that's a fair question. Now here you are, attacking my "plain sense" because I dare to ask what the friggin label says to people who've already bought it.

I think that was a fair question. Perhaps if you had enough plain sense to read the original question, you wouldn't need to attack people.

As for the rest of the discussion, the manufacturers (and apparently you) only care about living in fear of lawyers. I take responsibility for my own actions (which may be an unusual concept these days). After all, if the manufacturers are living in fear of lawyers they only care about THEMSELVES, not about ME. If I try something and there is a negative outcome, I have sense enough not to sue anyone.

Go ahead and hide in your basement from the lawyers. But how dare you attack me for not living a similar life of fear. That is MY business. I came here to ask a question. Not to be lectured.