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RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

So I think he is in a different league than most people on here

Please explain that in more detail.

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouse45

Quote:

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

So I think he is in a different league than most people on here

Please explain that in more detail.

Are you kidding Grouse? :D What needs to be explained? Chap said "I think he is .....", so that's what Chap thinks. Iagree with him. Shockey is sure in a different league than I. I'm not into hero worship, but I can only dream of making the kind of hunts he's made. I expect that's true ofmost people here.

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouse45

Quote:

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

So I think he is in a different league than most people on here

Please explain that in more detail.

I thought I did when I cut and pasted his "hunting bio" on page 3 of this thread. That is what I ment as "different league", I didn't say better hunter, better shooter just he hunts a lot more than most of us, and hunts a lot of different species, all with Nosler Partitions is my point. Chap

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Actually i wasnt kidding and i should stay away from this but i will post a couple facts before i leave this thread.

He doesnt have a clue about sabots. When he was asked in Pittsburgh about a HPH12 and a HPH24 sabot he was very confused. Did not understand and clearly didn't hide that. He shoots American Pioneer Powder. If he did any kind of load development himself he would not be using that powder. 777 will eat APP right up in every category you compare in. Then BH209 eats 777's lunch in every category you compare it in.He's using it for wealth. The bullets he is supporting are okay, but much better one's are available at even a lower cost. How many different bullets has he tried in the last 5 years?

The ultimate slam was really cool with a Muzzleloader. Just about every person on this board could do that if someone gave them the time and money.

I'm not here to spoil any parties but i know alot of names on this board that probaby forgot more then he ever new in load development. In the morning they get out of the bed the same way to.

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

I agree with Chaps about Mr. Shockey. He is in a different league than anyone on this site. That's not to say that all the awesome people on this site haven't done anything compared to JS. Not that at all. There are some extremely smart people on this site that have done some great things for the muzzleloader community. But working up loads,testing sabots, shooting great groups on paper, and having an intricate knowledge of ballisticsisn't the same as putting down a world class animal (or 30 of them for that matter). And until someone on this site accomplished an Ultimate Slam with a muzzleloader, or even a 1/4 of what JS has, he will continue to be in a different league. I'm not nutt-swinging, just calling it what it is....

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouse45

Actually i wasnt kidding and i should stay away from this but i will post a couple facts before i leave this thread.

He doesnt have a clue about sabots. When he was asked in Pittsburgh about a HPH12 and a HPH24 sabot he was very confused. Did not understand and clearly didn't hide that. He shoots American Pioneer Powder. If he did any kind of load development himself he would not be using that powder. 777 will eat APP right up in every category you compare in. Then BH209 eats 777's lunch in every category you compare it in.He's using it for wealth. The bullets he is supporting are okay, but much better one's are available at even a lower cost. How many different bullets has he tried in the last 5 years?

The ultimate slam was really cool with a Muzzleloader. Just about every person on this board could do that if someone gave them the time and money.

I'm not here to spoil any parties but i know alot of names on this board that probaby forgot more then he ever new in load development. In the morning they get out of the bed the same way to.

</ softly spoken so as not to provoke anger>
Tom(AKA Grouse45)
If load development is the criteria, then your right. If general MLing knowledge is the criteria, then given his answers to the questions on MMP, I would say your right. But if "hunting prowless" is the criteria--he was an outfitter and exceptional ML hunter for MANY years before he became famous enough to endorse products. Endorsing products didn't make him famous, his success with a MLer did long before he endoresed. As for bullets, he has chosen well, so why should he change? Most of us on here likeMLer becauseit allows us toshoot our "ballistics lab" without buying all the reloading gear. Me I have an MS in statistics, so I am "into numbers", and ballistics, terminal ballistics, bullet design are amoung my favorite topics, there are many "pure shooters" on here, that just love shooting MLers and getting the most out of each gun. So in the class of huntersSir Shockey is outstanding, and he gain his reputation the hard way, he earned it. Now he chose a crappy powder to endore, but his bullet choice was excellent as was his choice of MLing rifles. I remember when he shot for Knight, and Idon't know the exact reason he left Knight, but he is over 50 years old now, so he has had to think, "ya know I am not going tobe doing this 10 years from now". I better get all thegood PRIcan get, and bring up some young ones to take over the outfitter part of my business, I will be the "booker" and front door to the business, butI will show them all my honey holes. cabins, and float plane connections, Moose hunting techniques, Brown Bear techniques etcand with those new young people that I trust I will make a living, and that is exactly what he has done. I respect him. I think he is worthy of respect, even if he shootsthe least powerfulpowder and endores it with his name. Heis still a man who deserves honor, because he had donenothing wrong to be disrespected. Did he sell his soul for his powder or fame, I think not, he is worthy of honor.
Chap
</end softfly spoken>

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: SWThomas

I agree with Chaps about Mr. Shockey. He is in a different league than anyone on this site. That's not to say that all the awesome people on this site haven't done anything compared to JS. Not that at all. There are some extremely smart people on this site that have done some great things for the muzzleloader community. But working up loads,testing sabots, shooting great groups on paper, and having an intricate knowledge of ballisticsisn't the same as putting down a world class animal (or 30 of them for that matter). And until someone on this site accomplished an Ultimate Slam with a muzzleloader, or even a 1/4 of what JS has, he will continue to be in a different league. I'm not nutt-swinging, just calling it what it is....

Well said, there is no doubt that JS is in a different league, especially in "hunting methods and animals hunted with a MLer", not paper punching, exactly like Chuck Adamswas in a different leaguebow hunting. Chap

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: SWThomas

I agree with Chaps about Mr. Shockey. He is in a different league than anyone on this site. That's not to say that all the awesome people on this site haven't done anything compared to JS. Not that at all. There are some extremely smart people on this site that have done some great things for the muzzleloader community. But working up loads, testing sabots, shooting great groups on paper, and having an intricate knowledge of ballistics isn't the same as putting down a world class animal (or 30 of them for that matter). And until someone on this site accomplished an Ultimate Slam with a muzzleloader, or even a 1/4 of what JS has, he will continue to be in a different league. I'm not nutt-swinging, just calling it what it is....

Well, my elk hunting buddy is good friends with a pro hunter who I will not name. What sets him apart is not skill or knowledge; it is connections which have allowed him to secure sponsorships and paid hunts which enable him to leave his paying job for 6 months out of the year to shoot trophy after trophy in areas that are intensively pre-scouted for him. In return he takes plenty of pictures with his sponsors' gear displayed with these trophies. He does not experiment extensively with his equipment; he shoots whatever his sponsors what to advertise that season.

This is why I look more to the in-the-trenches Joe Schmoe knowledgable "amateurs" on sites like this for their opinions -- they aren't selling me anything. When Sabotloader tells me Noslers are great and I should try them, I listen. He isn't making a dime off them. People like this are just normal guys who like to tinker and are willing to share.

Jim may be a great guy. He may even know a lot. The point is I don't know him, but I do know that based on his livelihood he is pushing an agenda and likely to promote anything if they are paying him to do so. So I take my advice elsewhere. Anyone can shoot trophies with enough time, money and help. I've scored two nice bucks off a property I've hunted a total of 3 days in the past 2 years, both bigger than the landowner that has hunted the land for years has ever shot there. Now they may not make Boone and Crockett, but I think that makes me pretty decent given my time limitations. There are monsters on that property, I know they are there, and if I got to hunt more than 2-3 days per year I'm sure I could take some trophy photos like Jim too but I have to keep my day job.

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

It doesnt take much to impress some people....................

RE: Best black powder load for long range with the Endeavor

Quote:

ORIGINAL: spaniel

Well, my elk hunting buddy is good friends with a pro hunter who I will not name. What sets him apart is not skill or knowledge; it is connections which have allowed him to secure sponsorships and paid hunts which enable him to leave his paying job for 6 months out of the year to shoot trophy after trophy in areas that are intensively pre-scouted for him. In return he takes plenty of pictures with his sponsors' gear displayed with these trophies. He does not experiment extensively with his equipment; he shoots whatever his sponsors what to advertise that season.

This is why I look more to the in-the-trenches Joe Schmoe knowledgable "amateurs" on sites like this for their opinions -- they aren't selling me anything. When Sabotloader tells me Noslers are great and I should try them, I listen. He isn't making a dime off them. People like this are just normal guys who like to tinker and are willing to share.

Jim may be a great guy. He may even know a lot. The point is I don't know him, but I do know that based on his livelihood he is pushing an agenda and likely to promote anything if they are paying him to do so. So I take my advice elsewhere. Anyone can shoot trophies with enough time, money and help. I've scored two nice bucks off a property I've hunted a total of 3 days in the past 2 years, both bigger than the landowner that has hunted the land for years has ever shot there. Now they may not make Boone and Crockett, but I think that makes me pretty decent given my time limitations. There are monsters on that property, I know they are there, and if I got to hunt more than 2-3 days per year I'm sure I could take some trophy photos like Jim too but I have to keep my day job.

All good points and Iagree that JS does endorse some inferior products in my opinion. But he didn't get to where he's at over night. And neither did the pro hunter you mentioned that will remain nameless. They had to have started somewhere and done something that got the attention of these companies. Otherwise why would they invest their money in a wild card???

And I applaud you for not buying into the product placement and advertising on hunting shows. I don't either. I shoot BH209 powder and a variety of bullets/sabots. All of which I have never seen advertised or endorsed on any hunting show and all of which I learned about on this site and Modern Muzzleloaders.