Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

ITEM - In my first try with Blackhorn in the Mustang using a .25 ACP breechplug and small pistol magnum primers I had delayed ignition on every shot and several failures to fire.

ITEM - In my second try using a 209 breechplug and CCI 209 primers I had failure to fire with the first two primers I popped. The firing pin broke on the third try, ending the test.

ITEM - I've fired 15 shots with Blackhorn and CCI 209 primers out of the Omega X7 with no ignition problems.

FACT: The Omegabreech plug is slightly longerthan the Mustangplug. A very small difference, but still longer.

FACT: The flash channel in the Omega breech plug is a lotsmaller than the flash channel in the Mustang plug.

QUERY: What the heck is going on?

Here are the two plugs - Omega on the LEFT, Mustang on the Right.








So, I got curious and did a little measuring. The measurements shown in the (amateurish) diagram below may not be exact, but they are pretty close.



Note that the flash hole on the Mustang plug - though almost twice the diameter of the Omega plug - is almost four times longer.

Now I'm wondering if I'll ever get Blackhorn to work well in the Mustang. Hey, maybe that's a good thing. :D

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi

But! the TC 'Speed Breech' is a lot longer than either of these two plugs and they are shooting the heck out of BH with the Triumphs...

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

It really sounds like you have a rifle in which BlackHorn 209 will not work and a different rifle that it works just fine in. When you were using the small rifle primers ... did you shoot Goex?

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

What if you drilled an 1/8" hole for a ways into the flash hole of the Mustang plug? That would make it look some like the Omega plug. Would be hard on the drill if the plug is stainless. Need lubrication and one of them drills made of titanium or some such thing.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Is that so, Sabotloader? Curiouser and curiouser. I'd love to see a cut-away diagram of the speed breechplug.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Cayugad, I've been using small rifle primers (non-magnum) in the Mustang for over a year. They ignite T7, Pyrodex, and GOEX with no problem at all. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a misfire or hangfirewith them. What's interesting is that the small rifle magnum primers DID ignite the Blackhorn 8 out of 10 times, although with a hangfire every time, but the two 209 primers did not.

Ron, I am considering modifying that plug, or even one of my two .25 ACP plugs to look something like the Omega plug - even to the extent of getting someone with a lathe to dish the face of the plug. Do you suppose there would be any danger in that?

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi

ronlaughlincomment made take a second look at you drawing again. I did not notice look at your drawing that well.

I divide the BP into 3 areas.... the primer cup - the flash channel and theflash hole. I did not recognize the fact that you really do not have a flash channel per say.... you have a flashhole that extends the lengthfrom under the primer cup... that might be a big problem. So my next question is what about the 25ACP BP is there a flash channel or just a flash hole? I am thinking a flash hole again...

Did you look at my last post in your other 'Mustang Down Thread' I posted a couple of pics of breech plugs. Look how long the 'speed breech' is....

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3328417&mpage=2&=#3329215

If you are up for an experiment when you get your gun back... duplex a load.... load in 10 grains of T7 or even Goex, then drop in 90 grains of BH compress the load with sabot/bullet combination and shoot that. If it shoots and I think it will - that would be a definite indication you are not getting enough heat through your flash hole to ignite BH but it will ignite the sub charge which ignites the BH.... If it doesn't shoot you will then know that the problem is compression leakage either out the BP or by the load...

What do you think?

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Just drill about half way thru the plug , from the primer side, with the 1/8 drill bit and you'll be all set I'd say;)
Use some 3-in-1 oil as you drill it out, for a good smooth cut:);).
And keep the plug fastened tight, BH209 needs a nice tight seal all around.


.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Good thoughts Lane and Sabotloader. Pretty much along the same lines as Ronlaughlin suggests.

I've pretty much resolved to go that way, probably with both a 1/8" flame channel from the primer side and a deep dish on the face of the plug, separated by a 3/16" long flash hole. Fortunately, I have a buddy with a lathe. I'll probably have plenty of time to get that done before the receiver assembly comes back from Dixon's.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Seems like i remember someone here or elsewhere getting a breech plug designed for BH209, to test, from Knight. Did the photo of the plug show a flat face? Perhaps the concave face isn't critical for BH209 ignition.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi

Just so you know I have shot BH in my White and it does have a flat faced BP. I would not recommend shooting BH in a White unless it were the 98, I think that is the one with a real bolt...

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I got out my spare BP for my Triumph and throw together a quick sketch, its very quick and very roughbut I did get the calipers out so you could compare some diamentions. Lee

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Probably not, but it would serve to move the powder a little closer to the primer. I guess every little bit helps.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I shoot a T/C Omega and use BH209and a Fedreal 209 primer. As long as I clean out the flash hole in the breech plug every 7-10 shots, I have no problem with hangfires. Dont need to swab very often either.
The only time I had a hangfire with this combo is when I squeezed 12 consecutive rounds off without any swabbing or cleaning what so ever. The 13 shot was a hangfire, so I swabbed the bore all the way down to the breech plug and my 14th shot was also a hangfire. Pulled the plug, made it shiney, cleaned out the flash hole and swabbed the barrel and, no problems. I swabbed after every shot from then on to prevent the extencive fouling build up in the flash hole due to the 209 primer.
The information that BH puts out states that a reguar shotgun 209 primer is needed and that the .25acp and .22 hornets or like, are too small to ignight the BH209. It also states that breech plug maintainance is necessary to insure consistant ingnition but swabbing the bore is not necessary to have consistant accuracy or full seating of the projectile. Its kinda a catch 22. If you dont swab, the flash channel gets fouled from the 209 primer alone, if you do swab, then that eliminates one of the benefits of the BH209. Now, I am still using the BH but clean the breech plug flash hole every 7-10 shots with a tiny pipe cleaner, without pulling the plug. I have a flash hole brush on order to make this easier. I am torn between FFFg & BH209. Still investigating.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Thanks for that drawing Lee. It looks like a1/8" flame channel is what I need to make Blackhorn work. It sure looks likethe problem is with thelong flash hole/touch hole on the Mustang plug(.658"on the Mustang vs. .150" on the Triumph and .175 on the Omega).

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Powerfisher

That is the information that Western puts out but I got to tell you I shoot BH in my Omega just fine with a 25ACP and small magnum primers. The 25 ACP seals the breech so much better than a 209, all of the heat & flash is delievered directly to the powder. The only thing i have not tried yet is sub-zero weather but I am confident that it would work.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I have been wanting to get a .25 acp breech plug for my Omega. I bite hard on the hype and decided not to unless I stick with BP. I have read that the 209 primer has too much push and will seperate the round from the powder during ignition whichcan result in inaccuracy and flyers. I dont friggen know. The more I learn, the more confused I become. I feel like I am chasing my tail.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Powerfisher

When you say BP I am assuming you mean real BP and the subs... I shoot T7-2f 99% of the time in all of my inlines including the Omega. Some people have a difficult time with the so called 'crud ring' for me it has never been a problem and it APPEARS even less now that I am using Montan X-treme BC. The other factors in my decision is cost of 10 oz of BH and 16 oz of T7. The 'crud' problem seems to be universal with either T7 or BH - one gets it in the barrel the other gets it in thebreech plug- for me it is a lot easier to patch out the barrel than to pull the BP and clean it.

The 25ACP is great little device - it seals 90% of the blowback from getting into the drop block. PR Bullets sells on lot of them on the word that it is suppose to be more accurate. I have never found that to be the a real fact and is not why I purchased the conversion. It is cleaner.

I can not argue the fact that a hot 209 MAY push the bullet off the powder before ignition of the main charge - that could happen... Two things do not use that hot of a primer - it not needed (unless you are shooting BH) and if your powder is that slow to ignite - get new powder... Good powder will ignite just fine. So the 'push the bullet off the powder theory' does not hold water for me.

When we all started in the ML thing we all had a learning curve anyway most of us did. Forum's like this can help a lot especially if you can identify the people that know what they might be talking about and the other ones. No matter which, take information you might need from everyone - evaluate it and then ask questions - then make a decision on what you want to do.

It certainly helps if you can find someone with experiance in your area to shoot with also. I hunt all year now with a ML of some sort - but more than just hunting it is a recreational thing for me I shoot as much as I can all year.

an added thought - once you purchase your first 25ACP you do not really have to purchase any other at the high price - you can use the purchased one for a pattern and either drill you own from an Omega BP or have a machine shop do it for you. Mine charges about $10 per plug.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I've read that too Powerfisher. It seems to be repeated over and over again in a number of forums. Personally, I no longer believe it.

I had a number of times whereCCI 209s did not igniteBlackhorn powderin my Mustang. Each time that happened I inserted the ramrod to re-seat the bullet in case it had moved forward by the primer blast. Not once had the bullet moved.

Like Sabotloader, I used .25 ACPs because they area lot cleaner in the Mustang than are 209s. Although I can't swear to better accuracy with the ACPs, I do believeI am less likely to get flyerswith T7 when using them instead of 209s.He's right about making your own .25 ACP plug too - it's not difficult if you have a drill press or lathe (or a friend with one). .25 ACPs are a little bit of a hassle to de-prime,clean, and re-prime - but that operation makes a good rainy day project.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Why go to all that work? Just shoot BH in your Omega and 777 in you Mustang, why go to all that work on a maybe for the Mustang? Seems sorta semiSane to me to not like BH for so long, then to wanna use it in every rifle.It is way too expensive to shoot for practice/plinking. I like it in my Omega, and I got a deer last night (90 lb doe) with 100g of BH in a Knight Disc with open sights, but if it didn't shoot in either rifle I would just stay with what I know works. Cayugad has alot of rifles and he knows what powder, what load, what bullet works in each.I think that is the proper model for each personality of rifle, the Mustang just won't shoot it.
Chap

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I have been wondering about the guns that use 209 primers and won't shoot BH, maybe they would shoot more accurate and consistent if the ignition were tuned up.
As for the male cow fertilizer about the primer pushing the round up the barrel before the powder ignites, I think that is disproved by the fact that some of us are shooting the hottest primes we can getand shooting good groups. I have posted a group that was around a 1/4 inch that was shot with CCI mag 209's if the round was moving from the primer then we certainly would not get good groups let alone under 1/2 inch. Lee

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Yeah, I know you're right Chap. :D

I don't plan to shoot Blackhornout of the Omega anyway- didn't get any better accuracy with it than I get with T7 in that gun, and I'd rather swab between shots than clean that Blackhorn varnish off of the breech plug.

It's just that I WANT to see what it does in the Mustang, and modifying the breechplug should do no harm as far as shooting other powders with it. I have half of my first canister of BH left to play around with. I'm really wondering if it might give me better accuracy with the Mustang than I can get with T7. In theone sessionI shotwith .25 ACPsI got groups that "almost" equaled my T7 groups, even with delayed ignition on every shot. I'm wondering if instant ignition will give me fantastic groups. If not, there will be no more BH purchases for me.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I don't know the varnish you refer to. I clean the encore breech plug with Hopps 9 it comes right off. Now the Encore'sbreech plug is longer then the Omega's so maybe that makes the difference?

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

lyman doesnt have an HQ based in the US to take care of customer service/warranty replacement? A 1 year warranty has got to be the worse ive heard of, besides the one that doesnt have one lol

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

The breech plug on the omega is like a water line in your house, 3/4"pipe running almost all the way
to the fixture then taken down to 1/2" pipe to create better pressure.As the mustang does not create pressure.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Are you sure? I believe Lyman is an American company based in Middletown Conn.that has Ivestarms in Italy build their guns. Warranty ,parts etc are taken care of here in the good ol USA. I have 4 lymans and would be willing to bet that they will outlast most factory made guns being produced today regardless of country of origin or length of warranty. The Great Plains Rifle is an exceptionally nice gun both in style and accuracy. Their inline ( the Mustang) is the only one I don't know much about. I never really liked the looks of it so I never got one.
Lyman over all in my opinion is one of the best black powder guns. Got my first one in 1981.
click here for a little history of Lyman http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/about/

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

From the Lyman web site.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi

I would bet the world you already know this but since FG/MD's posted the information thought I would supply someaccurate information

FG's statement:

Here is Lyman home:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/home/

Lyman Products Corporation
475 Smith Street
Middletown, CT 06457
Attn: Service Department



Here is the Lyman contact information:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/contact/


Well looks like I was late getting to the well... water is all gone you already have the information...

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi
My Encore breech plugs that have 25 acp which are the same as the omega work fine with BH 209. I cannot see a difference between them and the 209 primer. I use the 209 just because I don't have to clean brass and reprime.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Chap
I believe that Semi or sane has caught the BH virus and is just in denial. He just thinks he has made his last BH purchase.

Semi,
Instead of making both modifications to the breechplug at once. You might try to dish out the face and see if it works better then drill out the flash channel. It may only take one or the other modification to work. I thought I remembered a post where the claim was that the dished out face was needed to proper ignition. Of course this might be in the same category as 209 primers unseating the bullet.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

That's a thought crb. But, what the heck, once you get the sucker in a lathe you may as well go all the way in one sitting.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

If you look here: http://blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/brochure.pdf

and look at these Breech Plugs on page3 of the brochure your BP looks like it should work to me:





To me yours should work according to the pictures I see. I am going to ask you to do the following:

1) switch to some Federal or Winchester Primers and see if your problem goes away,
2) make sure your sabot is verytight, you should NOT be able to push it down with 1 hand
3) I wantyou to put your full weight into the ram rod once thebullet is down on the charge.

I had these EXACT same problems with my Savage the first time I shot it and I was NOT compressing the charge tight enough.

Chap

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I would be interesting to see if just a primer change makes the difference Chap.

Maybe I should hold off modifying the breechplug until I do that. I was using the standard CCI 209s (not the magnums). I've been doing a little web browsing and apparently CCIs are on the low end of all the 209s with respect to flame temperature and gas volume. I did have a pretty good sabot fit and really leaned on the ram rod.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

The flash hole is too long for adequateprimer flame to ignite BH209. I was in the gas industry for 38 years and my job was to engineer flow rates of orifices at various pressures. Its evident that the original design of the breech plug was tolimit blowback. However the design limits the pressure or flame reaching the powder.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

So Rock Fish, if I were to drill a 1/8" flame channel from the primer end, I wonder how long I should leave the flash hole to maximize ignition yet minimize blowback? Right now I'm still inclined to go with Chap's suggestion and leave the plub along until I can try a hotter primer. If that doesn't work, I can start drilling the 1/8" flame channel a little at a time and see what works.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

That's the way to go, trust me;)

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Well, I think it would be a good idea to try either CCI Mag or federal primers, I really can not believe it will cure the problem 100% but it should help.
My ides on how long the touch hole should be is based on the fact that as close as some of us have been able to tell the Triumph and the Omega have in most instances for most people have been the best most reliable and most accurate with BH[ i certainly never shoot any half inch groups much less back to back before I started using it.
they both have a touch hole that is right at .15 long since the guns that don't have the 1/8 inch flame channel to a touch hole that's that short are the ones that have hang and miss fires that and a tight fitting sabot and some wad pressure are the only obvious differences. So when you try the hotter primers be sure you also have a tight fitting sabot[ as long as it takes both hands to push it down it should be tight enough] and lean on it once when its all the way down. Then if it were me and it still did not work well with BH I would carefully measure and take it down to as close as is practical to .15.
Just my thoughts on it. Lee

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semi

Just my opinion mind ya, but even with hotter 209 I do not think it would be reliable... That flash channel allows heat andflash to escape the primer and also creates sort of a vortex to pull moreheat and flash out and into the flash hole.

If you look a White nipple Doc did it just the opposit, that is why the #11 cap is so reliable in a White ML... the flash hole is almost directly under the primer and the 1/8" flash channel is on the other side down into the powder... this really is effecient. but itis a bit dirty - not blow back but soot from the primers or caps...

I would still probably try the hotter primer but I do worry about reliability especially as the BH-209 fills up the breech plug and it does not take long.

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

I hear `ya Lee, but surely the diameter of the flash hole comes into play also. Although the flash hole channelon the Mustang plug is 3.76times longer than theOmega plug,it's largerdiameter makes it a little more than three times in area (.035" in the Mustang vs. .020" in the Omega).

Does anyone know the diameter of the flash hole on the Triumph plug?

RE: Mustang/Blackhorn Issue Not Looking Good
 

Semisane
They are real close, that's why I did not say any thing. On an unfired new breach plug for the Triumph a .30 pin gives a slip fit so I would say about .0325 of course after it fired a few times it may open up a bit. The breach plug in the Triumph has had about 25 or 30 pounds of powder through it and it is enlarged some when I put them side by side. It still is precision shooting so it will not be fixed. Lee