Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Thompson Center seems to have a corner on the muzzleloader market. Yes, there are still a lot of muzzleloaders being sold by other companies, but it seems like most people consider T/C the "Cream of the Crop". Why is that? Is it because it's whatmost ofthe pro's use? Is it because they actuallymake higher qualityguns than other companies? Or is it simply a mind thing and people just equate quality with price?

Just curious as to your opinions on this question....

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

only tc I own, is an sidelock, but every time I needed work done on it or parts there CS was great. the old thoughts of you get what you pay for comes to some peoples mind.

on the other hand, both cva and knight also have great CS. both put out great guns.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

A mind thing. Customer service plays a great roll. Advertisement like they have also makes it seem like they run the muzzle loading game but there are a lot of different muzzleloaders of the same quality, if not better, that are on the market.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

What makes T/C that much better ... take into consideration... Kodiak, Apex, Pursuit Pro and other brands of rifles are modeled after the Omega. The Optima, again modeled after the Encore. Thompson Center came out with the Pro Hunter and Encore that can change barrels.. Optima now can change barrels, H&R can change barrels, Knight KP1 can change barrels.

What I am getting at is, for years now all the other rifle companies have been playing catch up with Thompson Center. The highly successful Omega basically took over the market until some of the other companies got their models out. Thompson Center has stayed at the top of the game by new ideas and innovations. They also have a great Customer Service. And also they do have a great product. CVA tried to head the market with their Electra.. but it failed.

Another thing T/C does is flood the market with advertising. When they get a new product or innovation like the quick release breech plug.. they market to the hunting public to make them aware of the changes and what it can do for them.

Personally I think you look at the top of the line rifles from all companies... there are great rifles in every camp. But you also notice the price difference in the top of the line is close. Also Thompson Center's bottom of the line rifle is still an EXCELLENT rifle. Meaning the fit and finish and what you can expect from it. How often have you read, well the rifle was $100.00 what do you expect. I have wrote that myself. Thompson Center puts out a great product. They market it better then other companies. They back them with great Customer Service. And even if the rifle is very old, they still back them up and have parts for them. Some companies can not make that claim.

But I will say, if I had to compare a Triumph, KP1, and Accura.. that would be a hard choice from all I have read.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Well said cayugad.

T/C innovated two major basic designs - the Omega and Encore. Think before the omega was introduced -- most inlines were mutt engineering conversions of bolt-action rifles. Lots of blowback and cleaning usually required disassembly of a bolt assembly. 209 shell holders were primitive and barely functional in many designs.

The Omega changed that, and the Encore changed it while adding the break action and barrel interchangeability. As cayugad said, most of the current designs on the market modified the Omega and Encore only enough to avoid getting sued by T/C.

While never having owned one, I always have held Knight in high regard quality-wise. Why don't I own one then? Because for years customer usability played second fiddle to their proprietary Disc invention and I refused to buy a gun that depended upon their proprietary little plastic disc to function. The Omega shot just as well, with just as little blowback, with no attempt to latch on an extra revenue stream (this proprietarianism is what held Apple Computer down for so many years). See also Knights failed attempt to sell an entire caliber (the .52 rifle) that only they made accessories for. So while I think they had an early lead in the inlines until the Omega appeared, they are now playing catchup on design (no quality issues I know of).

I think CVA has come a long way in recent years but still suffers a lack of brand equity due to their history. Time may change that.

Now Traditions (also make the Remington Genesis) I've owned two. Both were crap for quality, a pain to clean,and downright dangerous in the wrong hands. But accurate.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I agree with every thing cayugadsaid, and I think there may be a few more things that enter in to it.
Every new TC that comes out is so much better than the ones that went before that's why all the el cheapo companies copy them, usually at about 1/2 the quality.
Then there is prejudice like the ones I have when CVA [the rest of the across the water brands are usually of shoots] fist started bringing guns into the country they were awful and so was their customer service I spent many hours hardening parts that were so soft they wore out in a few weeks and trying to get them to back up there stuff. I finally refused to sell or service there stuff and to this day I do not have any use for them.
I will admit there stuff has improve a whole lot and so has their service, but I look on there copying other peoples products as less than honest. Lee

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Cayugad was spot on.

I DO believe there is lots of improvement that can be obtained in the future, but right now everyone is just following behind T/C.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I compare Thompson center with Mathews bow company as far as leading the pack and advertising, advertising and more advertising. Mathews came out with the single cam, now every company has copied the design. They said two cam bows would be obsolete and they almostare. They started the vertical-force technolegy craze, and now everyone else followed.A lot goes into research and development and that costs money which has to be accounted for somewhere along the line.

So a TC. might cost a little more than those that follow and copy their ideas but like everyone said the customer service is second to none.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

+1. Well said. Chap

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I agree you get what you pay for when it comes to fit and finish. But they like to lead you to believe that the encore is more powerful then other brands or types of smoke poles and it just is not so. 100grains of black powder does the same thing in a cva that it does in a TC. By the way lets not forget that the break open "Huntsman" was around long before the encore. My dad always made me carry a huntsman around when I was a kid and I hated it, I wanted "Pump gun", now I leave my pump gun at home and take my boys "wolf"!!

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

There's some great info in this thread....

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better - 12/15/2008 6:56:35 PM








showPicture("12/15/2008 6:56:35 PM",0,0,0,3238882,26)


bornagainhunter
Theres a differance in max loads on a lot of there guns. Lee

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Simple....TC is the cream of the crop, the cadillac of the MLing world. It is the best gun on the market and is what all MLers are modelled after. They revolutionized the industry and can't be beaten. You may be happy with other brands and there are decent guns elsewhere. As for me, i'm going to stick with what i trust and what has never failed me or caused doubt. Take a chance and buy something else or go with the old reliable brand that has the reputation for a reason. Your choice. To each their own!

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

One other thing I can say first hand, I would rather carry a cva wolf through the woods than a heavy encore.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

CVA Wolf - 7 lbs.
TC X7 Omega - 6 lbs. :)

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Wolf- Shoots conical

X7- may or may not :D:D

Couldn't help myself.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

IMO Knight rifles innovated the MZ industry. But then they dropped the ball and TC ran over the goal line with the ball.

I personaly prefer the disc system. I like the way the disc works, but that is just an opinion.

TC makes a great quality firearm that tends to hold its value.

TC spends a lot on advertisenet, and they reap the benefits from those advertised dollars. The Encore is a great system. Tom.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

made in the usa

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

You really can't compare a Wolf and an Encore.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

made in the usa

PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA


Real Americans Buy American First.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

The folks I know with T/C products are very happy with them, including myself. The only T/C I own is a Pennsylvania Hunter flintlock. It's been out of production for years, yet it's still warranteed. I think that counts for a lot with most people.

Agree that many times high price is automatically associated with "best", though I don't agree that it's always true. In T/C's case though, it seems to be backed up with great products & service. It's also an invitation for other companies to produce a similar product at a lower price point, whether by manufacturing ingenuity, lower quality, or overseas production.

Most of their guns are out of my price range. I couldn't afford to have purchased a new T/C flintlock, but I got this one through a trade for an NEF Sidekick (a fine rifle, & also American-made). I generally agree with the buy American principle, but admit it's getting harder to do so if you're on a tight budget, especially with the Sidekick now out of production.

It's funny though, how perception can change depending on your point of view... I visit a traditional mz forum with a section for flintlock talk, and T/C's are usually crapped on there. Along with any other "mass produced" flintlock; Lyman, Traditions, Pedersoli, anything that isn't "custom built" & over $1000. Read enough over there, and you'll be led to believe that T/C flinters are poorly designed pieces of pot metal, lucky to fire half the time & even then probably a hangfire. Certainly not my experience, but I've seen them called flat-out junk more than once over there. So while we're debating T/C's top dog status here, another set of folks would question whether a T/C is even worth owning. Guess the irony amuses me!

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

People with money who buy custom or from a small MFG with high prices will always look down on the masses who buy from companys who mass produce. Doesn't matter if it is jewels, furinture even down to a car.

:) Al

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

+1

Go look at a centerfire forum for factory guns vs one dominated by custom rifles and apparently every factory rifle is a piece of junk...even though you get a gun that shoots .5-1 MOA instead of .25-.5 MOA for a quarter or third the price of custom.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Very true, yoop & spaniel. It just tickled my funny bone to jump from one forum whereI just read that T/C sidelocks are nothing but trouble to one where T/C has such a sterling reputation, in the space of a minute.

Suspect the biggest problem those folks have with T/C is that they aren't "period correct" (it's as much a re-enacting site as shooting or hunting). They realize that most muzzleloader shooters- even those who favor traditional- don't give a hoot about having an EXACT match to a historical model, but they DO care about reliable performance. So they insinuate (or flat out say) that the production rifles can't be relied on to fire quickly & regularly.

As others have mentioned, they do advertise heavily, and I'm sure that has something to do with both their popularity & higher price point. But no amount of advertising can cover for an inferior product over any substantial length of time. Might fool consumers for awhile, but it won't last long.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Speaking of center fires.. I was once (on a public range) sighting in my Remington Woodsmaster 742 carbine in 30-06. It has a 3-9x40mm Tasco World Class scope(back when they were really good scopes). I shot what I felt was a terrific group with a poor bench and factory ammo. As others there were looking at the group and commenting on how good it was for "that little carbine", a fellow told me it was not bad, but if I were shootingnickels at 300 yards, I be better off with a rifle like his.. I then turned to him and very politely said, "well the next time I want to hunt nickels, perhaps I could borrow your rifle."

Use what you can afford and what makes you comfortable. What I am getting at is, most any of the modern inline rifles with a scope can shoot 100 yards with little problems and do a great job. Some can even do better with that when you spend time to work on your load. Put a skilled shooter in the mix like some of you, and there is no telling how far a person could actually shoot with a modern inline rifle.

Even traditional rifles can be made to do some amazing shooting. Now granted you can spend thousands on a custom rifle. And it might shoot much better groups then an average factory mass produced rifle IN THE RIGHT HANDS. But when I have a deer at 50 yards and I know my rifle will go off and it shoot a two inch group at 50 yards.. I have basically a dead deer there. Even a custom, can do no better.

I once had an embankment give way and I fell down a small cliff and broke the stock on my T/C Renegade while hunting. T/C replaced the stock for free. Now think in terms of... Also I have a $39.95 CVA Mountain Stalker that shoots fantastic. If I were to drop that rifle in the rocks with its cheap black composite stock or drop a two thousand dollar custom rifle in the rocks (it happens believe me). Which one would make me scream the loudest?

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

always heard that my fathers remington model 710 was junk. It isnt the prettiest but for $350 scoped and 3 shot groups that you can cover with a dime, sure was a good deal. Bolt is hard to open and close but with the way it shoots, its not a problem.

May want to take a look at this TC customers treatment,
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/ph...ic.php?t=11056

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Ahh, those were the days. Now you can pay more than that for a can of powder

Come on now, we've all seen some pretty tight little clusters on your targets, too!

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Nothing against you personally man, but I love it when peoplemake hypocritical statements like that. And then you can walk into their house or just look at them and pick out 10 things that weren't made in America with the first 30 seconds.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

That about covers it....

We are fortunate that it is no longer a matter of IF the gun will fire....IF it is or can even be made to be accurate...for the most part the differences left are fit, finish, and convenience. Even the Traditions gun I owned that I keep bashing was accurate to 300 yards.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I very respectfully take exception to the 1st statement in this post. The SAVAGE 10ML is the "cream of the crop" and the "caddy" of the ML world. Mabye in the black powder( and BP substittute)world, T/C is at the top(although IMO, its Knight) but Im sorry, there is just no comparison of any conventional "dirt burner":D and the mighty SAVAGE. Its simple, Savage uses smokeless powder, the only production ML that can! This means less powder, less recoil, NO CLEANING whatsoever, and ballistics and accuracy that out perform any conventioal ML, slug gun ,or even most big bore leverguns. If thats not enough, one word , ACCUTRIGGER!

IMVHO foriegn made MLs are basically disposable guns(sorry if that offends anyone) , TC are very good, knight is a little more accurate, and Savage is the ultimate! (production ML)

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Then you won't mind me very respectfully taking exception to that ;)

I have spent a lot of time on Doug's Savage Board over the past 2-3 years even though I don't own one (I like to keep informed on the newest technologies). Unless it's pretty cold out or you stay with conservative loads pretty darn close to what our "dirtburners" can do, you have to wait a good 15 minutes between shots for the groups to stay together. That may be OK in the field, but I like to shoot my guns a fair amount and 1 group/hour is NOT acceptable. This is the primary reason I do not own a Savage. Until they formulate sabots that can "'take the heat" or make it easier to shoot sabotless like some guys do, it's an imperfect compromise.

Quality-wise, ballistics/cleaning aside, I don't see a big advantage for Savage over T/C. There are some standard mods done to Savages if you're really serious about them, like the third pillar. They're both solid guns. Note also that the Savage is built on a centerfire platform -- if any other competitor entered the smokeless game they could leapfrog Savage quickly by designing a dedicated platform, kind of like T/C did to Knight in the inline business.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Spaniel, you make some good points, BUT ......:D

1)Its much more like 5 minutes in between shots in temps over 60 deg. which is really not that big a deal. I just bring a couple other guns along to shoot in between.

2) Although I think savage could improve the 10ML in some ways, I dont think TC Icon has leapfroged Savage in the CF dept, in fact I havent heard much positive feedback on the Icon at all, certainly they havent gained the reputation for out of the box accuracy savage has, so I dont see why they would make such a superior smokeless ML.

3) the only leapfrogging TC did to Knight was in marketing , I still feel knights are more accurate than TCs. I see alot of guys haveing a hard time w/ getting encores to group well,and Ive always though TC triggers werent anything to bragg about, but Ive never seen a inaccurate knight.

4) There are ways around the 3rd pillar, like the EZ tool, or just marking the rear action screw to match the stock, but IME Ive never had the POI change cause I loosened the rear action screw.



If Ive given the impression I think TC are not excellent guns that will service 90% of the hunters out there, as good as they need, let me just say again, TC are very good guns, but they ,as well as any other ML, simply cannot do what the Savage does and it baffels me that TC ,knight or remington have not jumped into the smokeless arena yet, but until they do Savage is the ML king!:D

Now all they need to do is a dime's worth of advertising and promotion for it and it wont be such an enigma.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I have a Savage, a Knight Disc and a TC Omega and I have used the Savage 2 years now, this season and all last season. I agree about the 15 minutes, but there are some work arounds to that:

#1 is the barrel coolers that Harley inventedand Richard improved,
#2 is shoot sabotless by kurling a 50 cal bullet or buy a 45 barrel
#3 use an air pump run by a battery and just stick that down the barrel after your shot (I do this)
#4 shoot anyway and don't worry about the 1/2" to 1 inch loss of accuracy, which is what I do most of the time.

As for cleaningyou don't have to clean the Savage every time you shoot, I havenot cleaned mine once since the season started andI leave the bulletand powder in a weekor longer at a time. As for ballistics, that is not true that Savage is about the same, a savage will shoot 2350-2400 withmoderate recoil andthat loadhas a lot of energy and can reach out there to 200 no problem and 300 if you practice (I don't do that, 150 is plenty for me.). So those aresome of the differences between the Savage and regular MLers. Honestly back east hereshooting in woods and thick stuff, 150 max is all ya need and most bullets sighted in 3" high will get you there noproblem. Out west and the midwest shooting250+ yards, a Savage is just the ticket, since you can laser the yardage and the smack of a 300g bullet at 250 is devistating.IfSavage started marketing to the "Shotgun" only states on the advantages of shooting a smokeless 1 shot 100 accurate as heck rifle, they would sell a million of these in NY and Ill. Also a Savagecan be shot with light loadsand less recoil and used with kids andwomen. Honestly I like to use the Savage in regular rifle season, and the regular MLerin MLer season. I did that this year and I like that combo. Next year I think I am going to shoot regular MLer inML season, Savage in rifle season, and then inanterless only season after buck season, I am going to shoot percussion and FL up in Penna with my brother. Why? Just cause I can, just to keep each gun viable and not develop a favorite, and play/tune with different guns.

Also be aware on Doug's the people that answer most posts are the "hot rodders", which are guys that have 2 or 3Savages, spend $1000 on scopes, barrels, stocks, bedding,3rd pillar, etc. I shot mine stock, same gun I bought and put together day 1. It is accurate a heck in just this configuration, actually it is better than I am, that is why I bought a lead sled, since the gun was so much more accurate than what I was use to. On this site, wehave a lot more posters anda lot guys with only a few years of experience get in the mix and offer their experience and opinions, which is a better experience for the poster. OnDoug's Savage board, you can get coughtup in things and spend a lot of money for 1/2 inch of accuracy. Heck dead is dead, bullets are what kill, I like Savage accuracy, but there is a LOT to learn about the Savagegun before "getting good" with it (seating and compression). I think you can shoot book loads right out of the box and dovery well hunting with it. Also I think you can tune and fiddle around quite a bit, in fact Icall it a "mini ballistics lab", since you can duplex loads, shoot sabotless, etc, fiddle and fiddle for the last 1/2 of accuracy. Heck my gun shoots plenty accurate enough for me for hunting.I may get the tool that allows you to take the breech plug out without loosing the action screw, but I have marked mine, so I always screw it back in exactly where it was.
Chap

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

I own a Savage centerfire rifle & it's a great gun. Have a lot of respect for the company, and no reason to think that the 10ML isn't a fine rifle. Glad you're happy with yours.

That said, I think you're blowing more smoke than my old flintlock does with Goex fffg down the tube. There's still a bunch of us out here who don't need (or even want) a muzzleloader that has better ballistics than a big bore lever. You seem to have worked out a nice pecking order of accuracy by manufacturer. Either you've spent considerable range time witha dozen or sorifles from each company, or your unofficial rankings are about as useful as a sopping wet can of gunpowder.

Bull---t, you're not sorry. Offending people is the only reason you'd post something like that. An awful lot of folks shooting tight groups & killing critters with these foreign-made disposables. They must be buying new ones every year & not telling us.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

One thing I would like to add.. to deerbearandhoG and Chaps post. I am not going to argue the excellent craftsmanship in Savage rifles. To try and do so would be futile. But I will add.. just as there are traditional shooters not willing to move or accept if you will,to the inline side of the fence.. there are some inline shooters that will not move to the smokeless side of the fence. Not to mention some states will not move to that smokeless side of the fence as well. Whether I agree with State's attitudes or not. Which I do not. Wisconsin finally got smart and allowed Savages.

Now granted, a Savage can shoot conventional black powder and subs as well as smokeless. BUT by doing so, what is gained? Also, can a Savage owner explain this vent liner to me? What is it, what does it do, and how often do you have to change it?

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

The thing on the LHS is the tool to remove the breech plug, the thing in the center is the breech plug, the thing on the RHS is the Vent Liner, which screws into the breech plug. You shoot it 100 time, but in my experience about 50 and the hole gets bigger and you loose accuacy. When BP reaches .035 time to throw it away. It comes .032. Chap

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Geez guys, I'm not kicking your baby here.

First, I have it on the authority of some of the most experienced Savage shooters that the cooling time is considerably longer than 5min if you are shooting anything remotely superior to blackpowder velocities. Sure, you can rig cooling systems etc to make it tolerable but look back to the topic here -- that's huge effort to circumvent a weakness of the gun! Sure, I can replace the barrel on a Traditions and drop it in a McMillan stock but that doesn't say a whole lot about Traditions, does it?

The comparison to the Icon is irrelevant, you miss my point. Knight innovated inlines, but based them on a centerfire platform complete with a bolt assembly -- a completely unnecessary item in a ML that only adds length and more to clean. TC released the Omega and Encore, both throwing centerfire convention away and designing bottom-up for their specific purpose and the rest is history. Knight and every other manufacturer have been playing catchup ever since.

There is no reason for a bolt on a smokeless ML gun either. If anyone else sees fit to play in this market, they could mimic the TC strategy and design a platform specifically for smokeless ML, not bringing along the baggage of a retrofitted centerfire platform. Edited to add - the breech plug design is also not optimized for what it is for, it is optimized to make up for the pre-existing design of the Savage Model 10 and get past the barrel nut. Another area for potential improvement in a from-scratch design.

As for ways around the 3rd pillar, again, we are talking about the function and design of the gun from the factory, not all the things you can do to make up for it's weaknesses. See the retrofitted Traditions analogy above.

Don't get me wrong, I follow the Savage with great interest. Personally, I'm waiting for the next generation or if I wanted to go smokeless would go with a custom offering or rebarrel to .45 or .40 for sabotless. It's a good gun. But the panacea of the ML world? Not in this man's opinion. I see it roughly equivalent to other high-end MLs with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

As you mention, most guys here are interested within 150 yds. In that realm, the sole advantage of the Savage is cleaning (you mention recoil but if you are throwing ML bullets at 2400fps you are NOT reducing recoil!). My Omega takes 5-10min to clean, 777 has been a big advance over Pyrodex in that realm. Even my centerfires get a good wipe-down and oil after a day in the field, there is not a big difference.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

OK.. so that vent liner is like a backward nipple port of sorts. What happens if you do not change it out soon enough? I almost bought a Savage ML-10 last week. I was bidding on it but was beat. Which is fine by me.

RE: Curious... What makes a T/C that much better
 

Accuracy degrades, from my understanding.

Some report inline breechplugs also need to be replaced as they erode larger. I have many hundreds through my main Omega with no loss in accuracy so I've never personally seen it. Given the difference in propellants, it would not surprise me if this is why it's seen a lot sooner in a Savage. In a smokeless cartridge gun you never use brass hundreds of times to see any erosion but, similarly, if you get flash holes of differing sizes in your brass it will hurt accuracy.