We look forward to your report.

I do have to make a note, though, why I don't give much credibility to all these tests. We have a former forum member who always claimed that Shockwaves don't expand and just pencil through. Then, more recently, someone (I can't remember who and don't have time to search for the thread) posted the results of SWs shot into a snowbank and recovered after the snow melted. The 250gr SWs were VERY opened, and his conclusion was that is was a thin-skinned varmint bullet that couldn't be trusted because they open up too much. The same individual who claimed they penciled through (ie didn't open) then jumped on on the bandwagon that they are unrealiable because they blow up!

My point is, shooting in snow and they open up wide. Shoot into dirt and they don't open at all. Hard bullet penciling through or explosive varmint bullet. It can't all be true. I certainly don't think people are making this stuff up, only that the testing methods are of very limited informative value.

I go back to the verified reports on game....which, to me, show about the same as for every bullet out there -- mostly good success, most of the bad linked tho shot placement, and a handful of others that leave you wondering why the bullet performed more poorly than the majority. Which takes me back to my working hypothesis, the differences between bullets are over-hyped. Most people have good experiences with Barnes but I had one (out of a shotgun) explode on the surface of a shoulder blade on a soft, young deer without penetrating. Does that mean it's a bad bullet? Well, I haven't used them since but I'd still say no, I probably got a bum one. We pretend each bullet is exactly the same but like all manufactured products, some are good and there are always a few bad ones mixed in where the process didn't work quite right.

250g SW/sst have worked excellant for me on the last 4 deer i took and see no reason to change yet. karl

spaniel

Shockwave discussion... you and I have had this conversation very briefly a few years ago. It is my belief that the SST/SW can pencil its' way through a thin skinned whitetail at the closer ranges... may be up to 100 yards. I am not saying that this always happens but I do belive it happens more often than not when the bullet is shot through without contacting bone. The bullet is literally traveling to fast to expand in the short distance it travels through a whitetail. The longer the bullet stays in the animal the more likely iti is to expand.

This is all theory on my part as I do not use that bullet, nor do I use any other pointy bullet except in my centerfire rifles.

I would offer this target as a topic of disscussion...



These are not SST/SW bullets but I was testing these bullets the other day. The test was a test for accuarcy not really a expansion test. But if you look at the target I think it suggests a what is being discussed.

If you look at the upper left target you can see the five shots. These were the hard tipped Lehigh's. The target backing was a piece of 3/8" plywood. The bullets proved to be accurate but as you can see the pencilling effect certainly was indicated. Then if you look at the 2 groups on the center bull - these were the same bullet minus the tip. The holes are much mre defined than the tipped Lehigh.

I did not setup a chrono that day but I believe the muzzle velocity would be right @ 2200fps.

Just food for thought...

I've made similar observations on a number of target backers (try an insulated metal door -- very interesting). I'm not going to argue at all that a hollowpoint is more likely to expand quicker that a pointy bullet -- that is why hollowpoints are designed the way they are, after all.

A deer, however, is much thicker than a piece of target backer. I'm not as concerned if the bullet takes .5 inches or 2 inches to really start opening, as long as the damage in the following 10 inches is good and the exit hole is good. I also live in the camp that says you don't need hugely catastrophic damage to kill a deer, they are not that tough and I like to eat what I shoot so I don't want to blow up a whole shoulder if my bullet is off by a couple inches and catches it.

Lungs aren't empty bags of air but tissue. I know from experience that a SW will do plenty of damage to bring down a deer quickly. Perhaps it's not what you'd get with some hollowpoint designs, but again I don't need to gut the deer to bring it down. While I haven't often used the 250 SW I've downed dozens with the 200 SW and I think my record of consecutive DRT animals speaks for itself (at least 6-7 in a row, from memory). Conversely, the last deer I had run 200+ yds was shot with a 300gr Keith Nose hollowpoint that, for some reason, never opened apparently.

Now if you shoot it badly, and you need to rely on raw bloodletting to bring the animal down, the hollowpoint is going to win.

My real point was to point out the inconsistencies between the various tests and how poorly they inform performance on game.

BTW I still have those Noslers you sent me in my range bag. I have to get them worked up as I drew another elk tag, so they're next on my range list as soon as I get the spring planting done.

Could it be possible that youwere loading with too heavy of a charge?

Threeyears ago I shot a buck in the right shoulder with a 570 round ball. We trailed the deer for over 250 yards and I shot the deer again in the back of the neck. My meat cutter recovered the bullet and told me that he found it just under the right shoulder. It had flattened to the diameter of a quarter and about twice as thick. I had noticed that the exit wound in the deer's neck was a split much like a knife blade wound. Eight days earlier I had a simular experience with a doe but she went right down but no exit wound.

I was shooting 130 grains of Goex 3-f with an average velocity of more than 1800 fps. Since that time I have backed down to 90gr of 3-f for an average speed of 1600 fps. I have since killed eight deer with the 90gr load and got complete penetration and an exit wound every time.

This made me wonder if you might be pushing the bullet too fast causing it to fragment.

I have used them for years,taken a number of deer 7 to be exact and two boar several of these were with the 200gr 40 cal the rest were with the 250 gr one was taken at 220 yds according to my laser range finder the others were between 20 and 30 yds none of the ever penciled on me. The 200gr out preformed the the 250 by a good margin for penetration; after the first few deer I reduced the charge to to 90 gr of BH or a 100gr of 777 to get more penetration, heavy loads made the regular SW come apart to fast and to much to suit me. Now I use the bonded SW for elk size and up because I feel that they are designed for bigger game and while they don't exactlypencil it takes more than a deer to open them properly in my experience.
Between bad hits and people that don't check what a bullet was designed for, like what velocity and what size animal, I agree withspaniel. There are not many "bad" bullets if they are used at the right velocity for the right target. I also believe there is no such thing as perfect quality control so I carefully inspect and weight every bullet I use for hunting. Lee

My experience matches yours. I always thought the 250gr to be a little "soft", I've seen more recovered come apart...but the animals didn't know the difference. I think the longer-for-caliber shank on the .40cal helps it hold together better. I posted pics of the only animal I ever shot with a 300gr bonded on here last year, a doe and the damage was not impressive though I didn't put the bullet through much tissue and no bone. Of course she was DRT anyways...

I'm going to give the FTX a try this year, see what happens.

I will be very interesterd in your results. Please post them when you get them ready. Thanks!

I was mistaken, I had no S/Ws left. I tested the Barnes TMZ and the Hornady SST. Here is a pic of what I recovered. I think a picture is worth a thousand words.

I dont know how to upload more than one pic at a time. Here is another one. The Barnes went through, the Hornady's didnt.