RE: Shock wave
 

I have to agree with bronko punch through both lungs and your deer will be found within a 100 yards from my experience. Even with a bow a double lung shot, that deer will be dead in 10 seconds. I know that can run a ways during that time, but they are normally found within a 100. Thats my choice shot. Right behind the shoulder through both lungs= dead deer.

RE: Shock wave
 

I used the non-bonded yellow tipped Shockwaves in 250 grains. At 186 yards they performed great penetrating behind the bucks shoulder and exiting in front of the other shoulder. The buck dropped in his tracks. I was using 150 gr of 777. Seems to be a lot of variances in the perfomance of them........

RE: Shock wave
 

Got my first muzzleloader kill and shockwave deer this weekend, results were similar to what others have reported. Deer was a shed antlered buck (thought it was a large doe) ~165 lbs., shot was broadside with deer at a fast trot - 35 yds. from a treestand. Load was 110 gr. 777 2F and a 200 gr. shockwave. Bullet entered low and directly behind the shoulder, at the shot, deer mule kicked and took off. Watched it run up the ridge and fall over dead roughly 100 yards away. Went to the site of the hit and only found two tufts of hair/fat, no blood. Followed the track uphill and found one spot of blood 50 yards from the site of the shot, then another two drops five yards further ahead- great bloodtrail (though un-needed) from that point to the deer. Upon inspection and field dressing, the heart was completely gone and chest cavity completely full of blood. Entrance hole appeared to be the size of a quarter, exit about the same. Had this deer been in heavy cover and there been no snow on the ground, tracking may have been challenging.

These bullets are very accurate from my CVA Kodiak, though sighting in took about 15 rounds to get my scope dialed in. They shoot so much flatter than anything I have tried before! I expected longer shots from this stand as it overlooks a corn field and some CRP ground, thus the hotter long range bullet/load. Definitely was overkill for this deer. I will continue to use these bullets. May work up a load for the 250 grain Gold Dots that everyone is raving about for closer ranges.

RE: Shock wave
 

Congratulations on your first ML deer, it is exciting isn't it. I shot my first with a KNight all lead 240g saboted bullet, and it fell right over like the old guy riding a trike with a black coat on Rowan and Marin's laugh-in. Slow motion just tipped over. I had never had that happen to a deer before. When I saw the hole in and on the off sideI knew why. Big wide deer holes with expanded big bullets kill very effectively and very fast. I was amazed.

You may want to take a look atthese bullets also:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=330121

I think you will find them excellent, for Terminal Performane for close shots (<150 yards with 3" high at 100). They worked great in my Savage with a Crushed Rib sabot. I just ordered my 2nd box, but have not taken game with them yet, since only have 1 scope and need to keep that adjusted with my current hunting load. 45/70 bullets are the ticket in these 50 cal MLers, not the pistol bullets, the Gold Dots can handle the heat. The 45/70 are in the same velocity range as the MLers therefore great performance. Please see these reviews:

Average Customer Rating:

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[/align]Robert Riedel of Saucier, MS
[/align]Date Posted: 12/8/2008
[/align]Tried these and several other bullets in my new #1 sporter Shiloh Sharps. Groups were very tight with several holes touching at 100 yards. All bullets seem to shoot to the same point of impact with this gun but these bullets were very close groups. With RL-7, starline brass, CCI 200 large rifle primers and these bullets I took my first whitetail. It was a doe but I was in shock when the deer crumpled like I hit it in the head with a 10lb sledge hammer. Exit hole looked so bad I thought I was going to be sick and I have killed my share of deer. Definitely will load more of these. Case head expansion 3/16" above the rim was .501 so I would increase load but seated to the top cannelure it is a compressed load. Love this bullet!!!!
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[/align]Greg Lane of Bakersfield, CA
[/align]Date Posted: 2/7/2005
[/align]I have found this to be an excellent bullet in my Guide Gun. It is accurate(clover leaf groups at 100 yards), relatively flat shooting for the practical hunting ranges used. It penetrates and expands perfectly, retaining almost all of its weight. I shot a 6 foot Black bear in the chest, bullet was just under the hide on the back leg. A real preformer for the 45/70.
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[/align]Scott Childress of Dallas, TX
[/align]Date Posted: 12/22/2003
[/align]This is the equivalent of installing Twin Turbochargers on a Corvette!! They are not flat nose but rather Extreme Hollow Points with a "flat nose" shape that makes them safe for use in a tubular magazine. It defines "KNOCK DOWN" power!! Highly recommend using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Especially when reloading this cartridge, due to the recoil generated when approaching MAX LOADS. The last deer I shot, in the shoulder, actually flipped in the air before coming to its final rest a hundred or so yards away!! ---NOT FOR THE MEEK!!!
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You don't have to load them hot, 100g of BH or 777 is plenty for excellent performance. Chap

RE: Shock wave
 

G.C,
Rowan & Martin????...I guess your not a generation X dude, huh?

Bullet looks interesting. Barnes make something similar to stuff down a 45 cal gun?

RE: Shock wave
 

No, not an X due. As for 45 cal MLer, they make the MZ, which is the exact same thing except in the
.400 diameter:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/muzzleloader/expander-mz/

You won't get the knock down power of the 300g with the 200 however, but they are the closest thing. They come with a sabot, since they are made for MLing.
Chap

RE: Shock wave
 

The two deer I got with the 250g yellow tip shockwave were shot at under 50 yards. Neither time did the bullet expand much, it just punched right on through. Blood trails were fair, as in I could follow them but it wasn't easy. I can see how people would have a hard time with these bullets.

I may stick with them just because folks say they do well at longer ranges, and there's a very good chance that I could get a longer shot on my property. Plus, they shoot great out of my Omega.

RE: Shock wave
 

Matterof time before you loose the "big one" or have an "all nighter" following a blood trail with a big lantern, they are one accurate bullet, I shot this the firsttime I ever shot the SW out of my Savage:


Now with accuracy like that I was tempted to use them, however accuracy is NOT the whole game.
You need Penetration, Expansion and Shoot thru with little or no weight loss to have a good bullet.
I would use them for strictly long range shooting, but not for hunting that I do, mostly under 100 yards. Mostly thick stuff.

I am NOT saying that SW or SSTs are bad bullets, they are excellent bulletfor theirdesignedlong range shooting, if ya gotta take close shot--high shoulder does the trick to expand the bullet and puts the deer down right there.
Chap

RE: Shock wave
 

Yep long rangesw's are good but 100yrds and closer no way!!!! Barnes expanders are a good bullet for up close ranges and for those 200yrd plus shots too.

RE: Shock wave
 

I have found my SWs in the dirt bullet catcher at 100yds and some are not even dented. You would think that at 1500fps or so they would open up when they hit solid dirt. They were all about 3-4 inches in the dirt. I could reshoot them they were is such good shape. A bit dirty but, 100 % in tact. My range day is Monday and I am NOT going to forget my ammo bagthis time. I have three medias I am going to shoot into @ 100yds. Box of wet sand, box of dry phone books and a box of wet news papers. All will have a milk jug full of water in frint of them. I have a new digital camera so I will post pics of my results. I will be shooting SWs, SSts, Barnes TMZs and a few other bullets. My Omega loves 100gr of T7 FFg and a T/C 250 grain SW. I just dont know if I can really trust it. I would love to shoot some Yotes, they would be a decent tester but I live in town so......my 10 pump Crossman pellet gun is as much enjoyment as I cant get at home.

RE: Shock wave
 

We look forward to your report.

I do have to make a note, though, why I don't give much credibility to all these tests. We have a former forum member who always claimed that Shockwaves don't expand and just pencil through. Then, more recently, someone (I can't remember who and don't have time to search for the thread) posted the results of SWs shot into a snowbank and recovered after the snow melted. The 250gr SWs were VERY opened, and his conclusion was that is was a thin-skinned varmint bullet that couldn't be trusted because they open up too much. The same individual who claimed they penciled through (ie didn't open) then jumped on on the bandwagon that they are unrealiable because they blow up!

My point is, shooting in snow and they open up wide. Shoot into dirt and they don't open at all. Hard bullet penciling through or explosive varmint bullet. It can't all be true. I certainly don't think people are making this stuff up, only that the testing methods are of very limited informative value.

I go back to the verified reports on game....which, to me, show about the same as for every bullet out there -- mostly good success, most of the bad linked tho shot placement, and a handful of others that leave you wondering why the bullet performed more poorly than the majority. Which takes me back to my working hypothesis, the differences between bullets are over-hyped. Most people have good experiences with Barnes but I had one (out of a shotgun) explode on the surface of a shoulder blade on a soft, young deer without penetrating. Does that mean it's a bad bullet? Well, I haven't used them since but I'd still say no, I probably got a bum one. We pretend each bullet is exactly the same but like all manufactured products, some are good and there are always a few bad ones mixed in where the process didn't work quite right.

RE: Shock wave
 

250g SW/sst have worked excellant for me on the last 4 deer i took and see no reason to change yet. karl

RE: Shock wave
 

spaniel

Shockwave discussion... you and I have had this conversation very briefly a few years ago. It is my belief that the SST/SW can pencil its' way through a thin skinned whitetail at the closer ranges... may be up to 100 yards. I am not saying that this always happens but I do belive it happens more often than not when the bullet is shot through without contacting bone. The bullet is literally traveling to fast to expand in the short distance it travels through a whitetail. The longer the bullet stays in the animal the more likely iti is to expand.

This is all theory on my part as I do not use that bullet, nor do I use any other pointy bullet except in my centerfire rifles.

I would offer this target as a topic of disscussion...



These are not SST/SW bullets but I was testing these bullets the other day. The test was a test for accuarcy not really a expansion test. But if you look at the target I think it suggests a what is being discussed.

If you look at the upper left target you can see the five shots. These were the hard tipped Lehigh's. The target backing was a piece of 3/8" plywood. The bullets proved to be accurate but as you can see the pencilling effect certainly was indicated. Then if you look at the 2 groups on the center bull - these were the same bullet minus the tip. The holes are much mre defined than the tipped Lehigh.

I did not setup a chrono that day but I believe the muzzle velocity would be right @ 2200fps.

Just food for thought...

RE: Shock wave
 

I've made similar observations on a number of target backers (try an insulated metal door -- very interesting). I'm not going to argue at all that a hollowpoint is more likely to expand quicker that a pointy bullet -- that is why hollowpoints are designed the way they are, after all.

A deer, however, is much thicker than a piece of target backer. I'm not as concerned if the bullet takes .5 inches or 2 inches to really start opening, as long as the damage in the following 10 inches is good and the exit hole is good. I also live in the camp that says you don't need hugely catastrophic damage to kill a deer, they are not that tough and I like to eat what I shoot so I don't want to blow up a whole shoulder if my bullet is off by a couple inches and catches it.

Lungs aren't empty bags of air but tissue. I know from experience that a SW will do plenty of damage to bring down a deer quickly. Perhaps it's not what you'd get with some hollowpoint designs, but again I don't need to gut the deer to bring it down. While I haven't often used the 250 SW I've downed dozens with the 200 SW and I think my record of consecutive DRT animals speaks for itself (at least 6-7 in a row, from memory). Conversely, the last deer I had run 200+ yds was shot with a 300gr Keith Nose hollowpoint that, for some reason, never opened apparently.

Now if you shoot it badly, and you need to rely on raw bloodletting to bring the animal down, the hollowpoint is going to win.

My real point was to point out the inconsistencies between the various tests and how poorly they inform performance on game.

BTW I still have those Noslers you sent me in my range bag. I have to get them worked up as I drew another elk tag, so they're next on my range list as soon as I get the spring planting done.

RE: Shock wave
 

Could it be possible that youwere loading with too heavy of a charge?

Threeyears ago I shot a buck in the right shoulder with a 570 round ball. We trailed the deer for over 250 yards and I shot the deer again in the back of the neck. My meat cutter recovered the bullet and told me that he found it just under the right shoulder. It had flattened to the diameter of a quarter and about twice as thick. I had noticed that the exit wound in the deer's neck was a split much like a knife blade wound. Eight days earlier I had a simular experience with a doe but she went right down but no exit wound.

I was shooting 130 grains of Goex 3-f with an average velocity of more than 1800 fps. Since that time I have backed down to 90gr of 3-f for an average speed of 1600 fps. I have since killed eight deer with the 90gr load and got complete penetration and an exit wound every time.

This made me wonder if you might be pushing the bullet too fast causing it to fragment.

RE: Shock wave
 

I have used them for years,taken a number of deer 7 to be exact and two boar several of these were with the 200gr 40 cal the rest were with the 250 gr one was taken at 220 yds according to my laser range finder the others were between 20 and 30 yds none of the ever penciled on me. The 200gr out preformed the the 250 by a good margin for penetration; after the first few deer I reduced the charge to to 90 gr of BH or a 100gr of 777 to get more penetration, heavy loads made the regular SW come apart to fast and to much to suit me. Now I use the bonded SW for elk size and up because I feel that they are designed for bigger game and while they don't exactlypencil it takes more than a deer to open them properly in my experience.
Between bad hits and people that don't check what a bullet was designed for, like what velocity and what size animal, I agree withspaniel. There are not many "bad" bullets if they are used at the right velocity for the right target. I also believe there is no such thing as perfect quality control so I carefully inspect and weight every bullet I use for hunting. Lee

RE: Shock wave
 

My experience matches yours. I always thought the 250gr to be a little "soft", I've seen more recovered come apart...but the animals didn't know the difference. I think the longer-for-caliber shank on the .40cal helps it hold together better. I posted pics of the only animal I ever shot with a 300gr bonded on here last year, a doe and the damage was not impressive though I didn't put the bullet through much tissue and no bone. Of course she was DRT anyways...

I'm going to give the FTX a try this year, see what happens.

RE: Shock wave
 

I will be very interesterd in your results. Please post them when you get them ready. Thanks!

RE: Shock wave
 

I was mistaken, I had no S/Ws left. I tested the Barnes TMZ and the Hornady SST. Here is a pic of what I recovered. I think a picture is worth a thousand words.

RE: Shock wave
 

I dont know how to upload more than one pic at a time. Here is another one. The Barnes went through, the Hornady's didnt.

RE: Shock wave
 

Exit holes are nice and big.

RE: Shock wave
 

What was the charge and range?

I think those results are not unusual. The media you shot into are pretty "hard", and as I said I think the 250gr SST is a little "soft" (the SST and SW are the same thing). Especially if the range was under 100 yds, I would not be surprised to see the jacket separate. This is why I don't buy the "penciling" argument, I've seen way more real-life evidence of the opposite, that they tend to over-expand. I believe reports of this are why Hornady came out with the bonded version.

If I were going to shoot the 250gr, I'd definitely shoot the bonded version. With the 200gr I have also seen separation, but not nearly as bad, and not unless I hit both shoulders and recover the jacket under the offside skin (with animals DRT).

RE: Shock wave
 

100yds w/100gr. of T7FFg. It was VERY windy comming from NE of my position. Gusts up to 20mph. Blew my spotting scope off the table. No Damage other than scratches. Here is another pic.

RE: Shock wave
 

The copper jacket started to peeloff so fast. Just a few pages.

RE: Shock wave
 

The channels left behind were defferent too. I could stick my pinkey finger in the hole left by the Barnes.

RE: Shock wave
 

But not the Hornady SST. Barley the tip of my pinkey would fit.

RE: Shock wave
 

It hit the paper AFTER the milk jug, right? I'd guess it should have been opening pretty well after the jug.

I guess it depends what you are looking for in a bullet. A lead core bullet is going to expand differently than a Barnes, that's just design. That being said, I've commented before that the non-bonded 250SST/SW is the worst of the lineup, the 200gr is better and the bonded versions solve the deficiencies of the non-bonded to a large extent. I don't know why the popularity is the inverse of what I feel the quality is!

My brief personal experience with Barnes was in shotguns and showed poorer penetration and too much damage, but I think they do better in MLs (smaller bullets). If you like the pretty flower look and what you found (and the price), I'd recommend using them if you have more confidence in them.

RE: Shock wave
 

Yup, jug full of water first, then the wet news paper. Since the penetration of the Barnes was about half of the SST, I may give the 290gr Barnes TMZ a try. I figure since I will be shooting BH209 for hunting, I maywant shoot a heavier bullet since the BH209 is capable of good velocities with the heavierbullets. More testing. :D