Omega Accuracy Issues
 

http://www.hunting.net/forum/tm.aspx?m=3020888&mpage=6&key=

The above post is where Sabotloader and I left off on my Omega. Starting another post to get more idears.

So I tried one shim on the front block and was able to get the dollar bill to slide about half way back. I added the second shim to the front block and the dollar bill slid all the way back. So it was completely floated. Only issue I have is that the angle is pretty steep. I'd be kind of worried about the stock. Also the screws that hold the barrel to the stock would be at a decent angle.

I left a message with TC today and never heard from them. I even called and didn't hear from anyone yet. I've had this rifle for three seasons now and have never gotten it to group well past 50 yards. No matter what I've fed it.

Any thoughts?

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

statjunk

Just sent you a PM...

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I did the same thing with my Omega. I put two shims under the first block to get the height I needed to fully float the barrel and two under the rear block to make everything level.The dollar bill will easily slide back to the first recoil lug.I had a chance to shoot it this past weekend and it shot great. I was shooting 77gr/weight BH209 with a Harvester Short Black sabot and a 250gr Shockwave. This is the load everyone istalking about in their Triumphs. I was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards and I think the gun will do better if the shooter does his job and the wind will cooperate (10 - 15 mph winds). I checked the screws when I got home and everything was still tight. Nothing had moved.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I was just reading your other post where you stated that the sides of the stock were still touching the barrel. I had this problem also. I took some sand paper and lightly sanded the inside of each side of the stock untill I got full clearance from the barrel. Then I took some 2000 grit sand paper (I think) and smoothed it down. It looks fine. You will not have to remove much material. Just make sure that you keep checking and stop as soon as you get full clearance. Hope all of this helps.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

OK, I have not been following your issue but bear with me. I've had a lot of experience accurizing an Omega.

1) What is that stock made of? I have on of the original laminate wood stocks, which is what I have accurized. Yours looks synthetic? That will make it harder to work on...

2) Is the action completely out of contact with the stock between the recoil lugs? It looks like a big cavity there.

So here is my issue with what's been done so far. Just my opinion, take it for what its worth ;)

A gun's accuracy depends in part on how repeatable the things that happen after each shot are. By trying to shim the action to relieve pressure on the barrel, you are ruining the contact between the action and the stock. It may seem solid but, especially since you describe a significant angle and canted action screws, I'm pretty certain this contact is messed up. For certain, you are placing strain on the action.

If I were you, and you really want to fix this gun, I'd do the following:

1) Remove the shims and put it back together as it was supplied to you.
2) Whether with sand paper (if it works on that stock) or a power tool, carefull sand the barrel channel until the barrel is fully floated back to the front recoil lug.
3) Shoot a 200gr SW at 90, 100, and 110 gr powder for group. If it shoots well, stop. If not, go to step 4. The reason I recommend this bullet is I have tried it in multiple Omegas and it has shot well in each in this charge range.
4) Install action pillars. I bought some Remington 700 pillars and cut them to length with a hacksaw, but any aluminum tubing from the hardware store will work. Some have used those steel threaded pieces used to run wires through in lamps successfully. If you use non-threaded tube, you'll need to drill a hold to enlarge the current action screw holes out to the tube diameter, cut the tubes so they are flush against the lug on the inside and flush with the stock or slightly recessed on the outside (if recessed you can enlarge the hole slightly so the screw heads are recessed when inserted).Epoxy those pillars in, from the outside so no epoxy reaches the inside, and let dry with action screwed in tightly so it sets up in the right orientation. If you use threaded pillars, you'll have to screw them into the stock and drill accordingly for that. All depends what you use. The goal here is that you now have metal-metal contact and each time you screw the action in the screws will stop HARD on the pillars the same way each time.
5) Shoot as suggested above. If still not good, proceed to step 6.
6) Bed the whole action from the back of the receiver to the front recoil lug. I recommend ProBed-2000. I cannot give you exact instruction on this as it depends on the design of your stock. The ramrod channel can be an issue, but you use clay to fill in the parts you don't want filled like that so it's doable. Basically, you will grind out (dremel is great) at least 1/8" of material in EVERY place the stock touches the action except those shiny new pillars (including all around the pillars. You then fill in everything with epoxy to create a nice, uniform bed that conforms exactly to the action shape to lock everything in solid. Mine is so tight that the action can only be removed with two hands to pull the lugs straight up out of their beds. Any cant and it won't come out, it's awesome.
7) Shoot it again. If it still does not work, try 2-3 other bullets. If that doesn't work, your barrel is CRAP because you have fixed everything else that could be the source of the problem.

When I started with my Omega, it was a 1.5 MOA gun and POI changed with action screw tightness. Now I can shoot it sub-MOA to 200 yds and MOA to 400 yds and it will return to zero nicely even if I pull the action from stock and put it back in.

Nothing I have suggested can make anything works. No guarantee it will be better either but this is what you do to accurize the gun.

If you decide to go this route, PM me and I can help you some more.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Has anyone sanded a synthetic stock? Secifically the camo one.

Thanks

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Spaniel offers you all that and this is all you say? :eek:

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

The stock that I sanded was the regular(not thumbhole) camoflauge synthetic stock.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

You're a newbie but you're right. Thanks to all that posted on my behalf. I very much appreciate the help with this matter. Spaniel, Thanks for the long post.

This post is a continuation of the previous post and somewhere along the way I forgot my manners.

SHulion,

Thanks for responding I may add one shim and get to sanding. I've floated barrels before but they were lamanate or wood stocks.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I think I am going to take the shims out and try sanding the stock untill the barrel if completely floated. I think I would feel better with both recoil lugs sitting completely in the bedding blocks. I don't think I'll have to do much more sanding.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I sanded my synthetic/camo stock and it worked fine. I used a course sandpaper I had lying around(100 gritt)to get the clearance then I finished with a 400 gritt. I will go shoot it tomorrow to check it on paper. Thanks for the post spaniel, very informative.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I too had some issues with my Omega and accuracy. I also had an issue with zeroing the gun where I could not get the POI high enough. This was using a Talley one piece mount. I had to have the scope adjusted to max verticle and the groups were not really impressive. I bit the bullet and bought a Ken Farrell +20 MOA base and added Warne rings. I also did a proper bedding job (no shims) and floated the barrel in the laminated stock. Now, the gun shoots sub MOA to 200 yards. I will test it further this weekend.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I spoke with Thompson Center yesterday and had the customer supervisor on the phone, his name is Roland. He claims that he does not know of an accuracy problem in the Omegas due to the stock and essentially thinks that we all do not know what we are doing.

He was friendly enough but honestly seemed like he was playing legal ease and not admitting to anything etc...

I going to go to the shooting range on Saturday and see what my Omega does with two shims under each recoil lug. That is 0.065" increase in height.

If that works out then I'm going to sand the stock. After a quick call to Roland to see if he will replace my stock with a laminate stock.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Just remember the problems shimming can cause ;D

hntbambi - your zeroing experience is STANDARD on Omegas/Encores. Cut shims for the back of the mount (4?) from the curved side of a soda can, or use Burris Signature rings for which you can get inserts that allow you to tilt the scope in the rings. I did BOTH to my Omega so I have adjustment to go past 400 yds if I desire.

In T/Cs defense, I'm sure lots of people with guns that are fine call in complaining (they don't know how to shoot, try 150gr charges, etc). In my experience and second-hand knowledge they always end up making it right.I had issues with my front sling stud pulling out when brand new, I complained when the first fix did not work and I had to pay to ship it again and they returned it fixed very well with 80 Shockwave bullets to make up for the shipping.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

One thing that some of you might be missing is that the synthetic thumbhole stock is has completely different forearm construction than the wood laminate or the regular synthetic.

The thumbhole does not have a barrel bed along the forearm of the stock - for the lack of a better words. The only bed is right at the front of the forearm where it is point bedded.

In the case of statjunk's stock the shim(s) will allow him to relieve some of this "upward" push (and I really think it is an excessive amount of push)the point bed is applying to the barrel. (And also please remember, he and certainly I really do not know WHAT the problem is yet) I do not think he plans on leaving the shims in certainly not two shims per pocket - but it will allow him to see if the barreled action will shoot better with a free barrel. If all of this works for him them he can begin the repair of the stock. If it doesn't work - as it might really be a barreld action issue - he can still send everything back to TC and not have voided any part of his lifetime warranty.

Gosh i hate writing some thing like this - I hated English classes - this whole thing probably only makes sense to me.

What I have tried to help him with is to FIND the problem safely then work on curing the problem/

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Yeah my intention is if this were to correct the problem would be to remove all the shims and sand the stock down to the point where it's floated. This is just an attempt to figure out what is going on. I'd like to shoot no more than 6 shots on Saturday with the shims in. Three at 50 and three at 100.

I would never go as far as to say that I'm an expert shot but I'm pretty good. I can pull off 5/8" groups at 100 yards with my 300 Win Mag and I have a .308 that I can shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards for a 5 shot group. I typically go to the range every weekend even when it's relatively cold out. So I don't believe it's the Indian in this case.

I will report back on Saturday.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

If you can shoot that tight with a 300WM I doubt you are having flinching issues with a ML for sure!

I was just cautioning that even if the shims do not fix the problem, it does not mean that the other things I suggest including screwing it back factory and sanding the barrel chanel won't help. Everything you change affects the system, the best (but not only) way is to fix one area at a time and test. By shimming you are affecting two things at once (bedding and float), so theoretically even if it shoots bad, the float may have helped but was negated by the shimming.

Good luck, there was a point I was about ready to use my Omega as a target rather than to shoot at them...

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Statjunk,

That is exactly what I did. I shimmed the barrel up just enough to float the barrel and then took it out to shoot it. I got some really good groups at 100 yards. Then I took the gun home and took the shims out and sanded the stock untill the barrel was comletely floated to the first recoil lug. I didn't measure my shims but I still had plenty of recoil lug inside the blocks on the stock to hold everything tight. Atleast long enough to take 6 shots. I checked the stock screws when I got home and the screws were still tight.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

sabotloader,

It did look like the construction was very different than the laminate, that was the gist of one of my first questions. But even the laminate doesn't have a "bed", it simply has more material there that the action may or may not make good and consistent contact with. The shimming may help him learn something -- I'm just the meticulous sort and after all the pain I went through learning this stuff the hard way I'm just trying to break it down to where the feedback is most clear.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

spaniel

totally understand where you are coming from... but, the laminate is a far more stable platform than the composits and it provides theowner the ability to complete a regular bedding operation both action and barrel if necessary... The composits on the other hand were constucted to be light with very little excess material in them. The thumbhole is actually easierto work with than the non-thumbhole - but in reality it has less materal in it. No barrel channel - no ram rod channel

The thumbhole I have is so much more stable than the non-thumbhole - there really is a difference. It was really easy tosolve the problems with the regular composit and I think it will even be easier to solve the stock problems of the thumbhole - if it is a stock problem.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Well guys,

That pretty much did it. I shot two five shot groups. One at 50 yards and another at 100 yards. Other than one slight flyer in each group the gun shot 10 times better than it ever has. So my problem was indeed a stock problem.

At 50 yards minus the flyer the group measured 1 1/8". With the flyer it measured 2 3/4".

At 100 yards minus the flyer the group measured 1 3/8". With the flyer it measured 2 7/8".

I'm going to take pictures of the targets and post them here. Won't be able to do that till tomorrow since I don't have software to shrink the pictures down.

I'm going to call Thompson Center tomorrow and talk with the supervisor to see if he'd send me a laminate stock so I can get mor rigidity out that gun.

Here is another issue that I noticed. Now that the barrel is floated, it only takes a very mild amount of pressure to push the stock to the barrel. Like extremely light pressue. So basically that tells me that this stock has virtually zero rigidity. So essentially I think the reason why every once in a while I was able to pull of a slightly better group was due to placing the gun on the sand bags in the exact same place each time.

I'll post those pics tomorrow and fill you in on the call to TC.

Thanks to all especially Sabotloader for helping me with this. It's like I have another hunging gun in my arsenal without having to pay for it.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Good deal !
I floated my Omega (Z-5) and the groups shrunk to 3/4 inch @ 100 yds.
Tim

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Sure feels good to identify a problem like that.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

statjunk

COOL!

That flex in the forearm really is not uncommon an if the barrel is floated or even point bedded correctly - it should not cause a problem unless you place excess upward pressure on the end of the forearm... be kinda like using the barrel as the front rest when shooting off a bench.

Wish I still had my Laminate stock - I would trade you straight across for your camo thumbhole

mike

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

At one time, I thought about trying to do something to ensure I could recover the same POI after removing the stock when cleaning my Omega (stainless with black composite stock). All I do now is make sure I replace the screws the same way by referencing them to the hands of a clock. It seems like every other cleaning, the screws end up a little different,but I don't really see it affecting accuracy too much. Isn't it safe to say for 100 yards and under, there probably is not going to be enough difference in the POI to effect deer hunting accuracy, beinga six inch circle? For whatever its worth, I happend to check my stock to barrel fit using a five dollar bill (beacuse I am a big spender) and I could only get the bill about halfway in before it got stuck.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Going to call TC right after this post I'll report back. Here is the 50 yard target.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

100 yard target.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Got off the phone with TC. It went ok. He says that he will guarantee that my gun will leave his factory shooting 2" or better at 100 yards. Says that he is dumbfounded as to why the groups improved by shimming up the action.

He will not send me a new stock without me sending in my rifle first.

He is also slightly opposed to swaping out the synthetic for the laminate. Says it should work fine with what I have on it.

I'll keep you guys posted. Should have it shipped by tomorrow.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Put it in the mail today.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Called TC today. I should have my rifle by early next week. Will keep you guys posted.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

This is a very interesting post, even though I do not own a Omega.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

statjunk

Do you know if they swapped stocks?

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Nope. He gave me zero indication of what would be done. I'm hopeful that whatever they do my gun comes back a shooter.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

statjunk

10-4 on that one...

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

i guess i got lucky with my omega. i sold the original stock and bought the factory thumbhole. i use 2 pyrodex pellets and 300 grait xtps .44 with the green sabots and its shooting holes side by side at 50 yards so far. good luck with it!

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

He's lucky it wasn't me on the phone, I'd get a little mean. He can't say he works on guns and not understand how stock contact/pressure can affect accuracy.

Does not surprise me he is resisting the swap, that will cost them money and while I found TC helpful I did have to do some prodding to get things done right (that's why my gun had to go back TWICE).

The forearm flex is normal in that type of stock, though certainly not desirable. I had the same issue on a Traditions but it shot fine once I floated it.

Watch out for the test-shooting at their factory, make sure they claim they used enough powder. It's easy to make 80gr loads shoot well but not realistic for how the gun will be used I'd guess.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Just got the rifle back today. It's actually with me at work. I told folks that it's golf clubs. LOL.

I opened the box and they sent me a laminate non-thumbhole stock which I indicated that I had some interest in. So I was pretty happy that it had the laminate stock on it.

The part that has me perplexed is that they claimed to have test shot the rifle at 50 yards at the factory with the new laminate stock on it using 100 gr of Pyrodex Pellets with 250 gr Shockwaves and got 1.5" groups. They got 1.5" groups at 50 yards out of a lead sled which is what they told me they shoot all of their rifles out of.

Anybody got an issue with 1.5" groups with the above combo out of a lead sled at only 50 yards?

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

I think it will be fine. When you get the chance to work up a load, I'm sure you will be able to get better accuracy than that at 100 yards.Were they usning ascope?They were using pellets and I'm sure they were using the supplied sabot that comes with the Shockwave. When you get the corrrect sabot(Harvester Short Black) and some loose powder like 110 gr. of BH209 I'm sure your groups will shrink. I doubt they really tried to squeeze off the perfect while testing. They were just making sure that the gun would group. You may still want to float the barrel though. I am going to order a newLaminate Thumbhole for mine and float it just like I did the synthetic stock. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

When I get home I'm going to check the float on it. I'm also going to put the scope back on it. I think I'll be out at the range on Sunday.

I will report back.

Tom

RE: Omega Accuracy Issues
 

Hey guys,

I got out to the range today to shoot the Omega after they replaced the stock with the Laminate straight stock (non-thumb hole). I sanded the stock and the barrel is floating quite nicely. I also sanded the recoil lugs and sealed them back up.

The first thing I want to point out is that the (I'm not sure what this is called) the length from the stock handle to the trigger is quite a bit longer and I no longer feel as comfortable reaching the trigger. So that is a slight bummer. I have to grab the trigger much higher than I would prefer so the trigger feels slightly heavier.

I shot a three shot group at 50 yards and that measured 1". Then I shot a five shot group at 100 yards and it measured 2". I'd like to shrink those groups a bit but man is this a major step up from where I was.

Maybe with some practice the trigger will feel better and my accuracy will improve. I will likely be shooting her again this weekend.

Tom