Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Ok I've come to the conclusion that I've got to change what I'm doing with my muzzle loader. It is costing me to damn much to shoot this thing. Over the last few weekends I've shot through at least $175 worth of powder and bullets.

Here's what I've been doing so far:

777 Pellets
TC Shockwaves 250gr
Powerbelts 245gr

How many loadings can I get out of a lb of Blackhorn? I'm thinking like 70 since 7000 grains in a lb and approx 100grs per load. I've been reading the posts and am thinking about trying it. Will it fire with the standard breech plug in my Omega?

What are some bullets and sabots that I can hunt with that I can purchase in bulk? I want to stay away from the $20 for 15 round bullets. It's getting out of freakin hand!

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Well since no one else did, theres a few thing you should notice.
The idea of going buy 7000 gr in a pound when loads are measured by volume dont work.
For your info, the standard set by Weastern for Black Horn is that 70 gr of wt is equal100gr by black powder volume.
Those power belts you mentioned not only cost excessively but have a narrow field of application [dont load more than 85 gr of powder by vol behind them they might frag on an animal]
Black Horn works well for me in an Omega[ use a 1/8 inch drill to clean the carbon out of the breah plug now and then if you use win 209's]
Black Horn has only 10 oz in a can. It is very expensive and not the way to cut costs.
#1 If you are shooting for fun there are much cheaper ways to go.
I recommend loose powder, Pyrodex will work fine it is the most cosistant of the cheaper subs.
#2 Buy XTP or Gold Dot bullets in bulk if you want to use them for hunting to, I recommend 250 gr Gold Dot for deer size animals.
#3 if you are not hunting ,then buy lead bullets in bulk or mold and size your own [ some do this for hunting to]
Buy yor sabots in bulk from Graf or Midsouth.
#4 If you configure your buying carefully you should do better than 50% of what you were spending.
#5 If you want to use the best for hunting and still shoot all year long then try the Parker or Barnes or Partition bullets and only shoot them to sight in before season and for deer or what ever.
Lee

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

I still use Goex inless I find Pyrodex on sale...A pound of Goex FFF from the local distributor is $11.55...

For cheaper bullets you might try bulk MMP-24 sabots and .452 Hornady XTPs in either 250 or 300gr...

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

When cost of shooting is my concern, and it is... shoot something cheaper. Try some Pyrodex RS, Goex 2f, or even Triple Se7en. Find it on sale and it is all the better. One year when Wal Mart had their end of season sale and Pyrodex RS was $8.00 a pound, I bought them out. I think I ended up with twenty somepounds. But at that price it was a great deal. That was three or four years ago, and I have shot all that off long ago. That's cheap shooting.

As for bullets, I could not agree more. These companies that want a $1.00 a pop for their bullets can shoot them off themselves. What I actually do is I find a load that shoots good with these fancy bullets like Barnes, Nosler, Powerbelt, Sierra, Parker, etc.. and then I have a pack of them for hunting. For target shooting, I get bulk.

My favorite bulk bullets are 300 grain Hornady XTP .44 caliber and Green Crushed Rib sabots. These shoot well out of 80% of my inlines and fast twist rifles.

Another thing is get a traditional rifle and some roundball. You can load 80 grains of powder and shoot all day for very little.

As for Black Horn 209 giving you 70 shots.. I would not bet on it. The jug is 10 ounces not 16 ounces (one pound). Also I shoot 100 grains of it. I never weighed that out, but I would doubt I get 60 shots out of a jug of it. I wish I had kept better track of the first jug, but I believe I got 49 shots out of it, but don't quote me...

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

Pellets - probably the most expensive form of powder on the market
Both - bullets - way to expensive to shoot for fun and not even the best bullets for hunting - just my person opinion

Loose powder is far less expensive - unless you are going to purchase 10 oz container of BH - I shoot T7 because I can get it for $20 off the shelf and sometimes for $13/$15 on sale - but for a lot of shooters it presents some problems - fortunately for me it doesn't.

Bulk bullets such as the Speer Gold Dot with packages of sabots to fit your bore - much cheaper and the the Gold Dot is a very effective bullet on game, unless you are shooting 175+ ranges the bulk of the time. The Gold Dot will do it but it requires you to use a thought process.

One of the big reason I turned to shooting ML's was shooting expense - I shot a lot centerfire for along time when I made the switch to ML's it was more enjoyable and less expensive per shot.

just some thoughts

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

https://www.grafs.com/product/188177 1 lb of Hodgdon T7 FFg 19.99 7000 grains powder = ~100 loads at 100 grains Volumetric 20 cents per load.

https://www.grafs.com/product/185058 1000 Cheddite 209 primers 27.59 2.8 cents per load

https://www.grafs.com/product/189133 Hornady .452 XTP 50/box 14.39 29 cents per load

https://www.grafs.com/product/188040 Harvester .50 sabots 50/pack 4.59 9.2 cents per load

Cost of above load 61 cents



-----

https://www.grafs.com/product/185256 or https://www.grafs.com/product/185257 245 grain Powerbelts 15-20 @ 16.99 85 to 114 cents/load

https://www.grafs.com/product/200733 TC Shockwave 250 grain 14.99/15pk 100 cents per load

https://www.grafs.com/product/188181 Hodgdon T7 50-50-100 pellets 22.99/box 46 cents per load

same primers as above 2.8 cents per load

Cost of each load using above components $1.34 to $1.63 per shot



All based upon just one vendor's pricing and does not include HAZMAT or any shipping charges (should be roughly the same expense for either load).

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

oh... and

10 oz of BlackHorn 209 is 4375 grains of powder

100 grains VOLUMETRIC of BH209 weighs roughly 70 grains

4375/70 = 62.5 loads per container of BH209 (call it 60 assuming a bit of spillage)

At $32 per container, each charge would cost ~ 54 cents

Using Blackhorn and the individual components in the first example above would yield a cost per load of ~ 95 cents... still a tremendous savings over the loads in the 2nd example above.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

For 54 caliber Great Plains flintlock:

1 lb GOEX FFFg @ $10.16 per lb. with 80 grain charge = $0.17 per shot.
Hornady .530 balls @ $11.91 per 100 = $0.12 per shot.
1 yard Walmart pillow ticking @ $3.49 per yard yields1152 patches = $0.003 per shot.
1 black English flint @ $1.50 each yields 40 shots (average)= $0.04 per shot.

TOTAL: $0.33 per shot (cast your own balls with free lead= $0.21 per shot).

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Ok I think I have paralysis by analysis. I'd like a bulk bullet that has good accuracy that I can shoot all year around at paper and hunt with it. What fits that bill? Only for deer sized game.

Also when picking a bulk bullet that does not come mated with a sabot how do you choose a sabot?

Also you guys are telling me that it's measured by volume. I've never shot a muzzleloader without using pellets. Does that mean I'm going to need a volumetric measuring tool? How accurate is that method? What about settling?

Is there an advantage of Goex FFFg over 777 loose powder? I guess if they are close I'd go with 777 powder.

I think I need this slightly dummied up to get me started.

Thanks
Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Good quality bulk bullets that you can afford and hunt with... Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot. I personally like the .44 caliber .430 diameter 300 grain XTP but you get more shots out of the 250 grain or 240 grain which would also be good deer bullets IF YOUR RIFLE LIKES THEM. The Speer Gold Dot I so far have not decided which bullet I like best. I have shot a lot of them but just have not made up my mind.

To match the sabot, look at the caliber and diameter of the bullet you are buying. A .44 caliber .430 needs a sabot made for a .44 caliber .430 diameter bullet. Normally they are green in color, but that is not always true. I like the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots. In the .45 caliber bullets which are .452 or .458 you have to be a little more careful. The .452 diameter need the black sabots made for a .45 caliber bullet in .452 diameter. BUT in the .458 which is also a .45 caliber (normally made for the 45/70 government) they are an orange sabot, in .458 diameter.

All of them would work well on deer. Deer are not that hard to kill and a 200-300 grain bullet is plenty medicine.

As for powder, if shooting a 209 ignition the Triple Se7en 2f is a great powder. Lots of power and goes off fine for me. You will need to get a powder measure that measures powder in volume. Set the measure at 80 grains and then start shooting groups. Work the measure up to 120 grains of loose, depending on the rifle you shoot and the accuracy you get. Normally somewhere between 90-110 is best accuracy in most rifles. BUT know what the manufacturer of your rifle recommends.

What kind of rifle are you shooting? I best some of these people can tell you a load that might work.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

+1

Crushed Rib sabots ($5.25 for 50):

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR

250g Gold Dots (15.24 for box of 50)

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000214484

Hornady XTPs (13.243 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000345230

MMP black sabots:(6.84 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0021150045HPH

Much cheaper. Chap

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Whoah! Yes this is more like it. That is exactly what I'm looking for. I might be able to afford to shoot this thing!

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Thanks for spelling this out step by step for me. Is this one of those posts that should become a sticky? Maybe label it how to shoot a muzzleloader on the cheap????

I'm shooting a stainless TC Omega. Is there anyone that has shot any of the above, Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dots and found one to be better or worse for the Omega? Any suggestions on what grain to go with? I'd like to keep the trajectory as flat as possible but also want the best accuracy I can get out to 150 yards. Though most of my shooting will be 100 yards or less.

I can't believe how much money I've wasted!

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

You haven't wasted it, just spent it on some expensive lessons. :)

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

My father has a TC Omega. His favorite load is 100 gr FFg T7, 250 gr .452 XTP, Harvester 50/45 cal black sabot and Winchester 209 primers. It has done very well for him with shots under 150 yards.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

Dang! i just had a response composed and hit the wrong mosue click and lost everything so I will try again... it was long last time maybe i can cut it down this time....

I have a SS Omega also and I should tell you right off the get-go I am totally biased - so use what you might want and throw the rest away.

One of my first biases is that I do prefer .451/.452 bullets over the .429/.430 bullets. One of the reasons people move to the 44 cals is/was bullet BC. I contend at ML velociies and ranges the BC difference is not that important+ I prefer near bore size projectiles. If BC is a concern then the .452/300 grain Speer Bonded Gold Dot might be your answer with a BC of.233 - closing on the the SST/SW at about 1/3 of the price.

But to be totally honest with you I do shoot an expensive bullet for hunting. I shoot a NoslerPartition for both elk and deer. I shoot a .451/260gr Nosler in aHPH-24 sabot on top of 110 grains of T7-2f for deer hunting, but for everything else practice-plinking-recreation I shoot a Spreer Bonded Gold Dot.452/250grain... the flight patteren are very simular so no scope adjustment needed. If and when I run out of Nosler the Gold Dot will become the hunting bullet also. I have decided this after several research projects, if you want to call them that, for me the Gold Dot will shoot through bone or tissue and provide the results you need. The XTP's on the other hand can come apart.

I have a bunch of information I would like to share with you but I t would take up a bunch of space... so I will provide only a few....

Here is a pic of a recovered Nosler - the nose lead fell out while I was scrubbing the bullet clean... these are the best of the best as far as Iam concerned. Easyly shot to 175 yards...



Here is a factory pic of an expanded Gold Dot - they really do not expand this uniformily - but close...



Here are some real life expanded Gold Dots



Here are some XTP tests....



This is an old thread you might want to check out...

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1791957

Keep in mind all of this is opinion - you will get to make the final choice... have fun...

the first post, the one in la-la land,had more viable information but I forgot a lot of it - have a ton more information if you want it...

mike

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

With that Omega don't be surprized if you get a crud ring with loose T7.
In Michigan about the middle of March hit the wal marts for close out saveings on Pyrodex about $8.00 to $10.00 a pound, T 7 was $11.00 a pound for 2 years running now.

Another place to get sabots.
http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Williams of DavisonMiprices on bullets Speer and Hornaday are hard to beat. Last time I was in there (spring) I bought Speer gold dots by the 100 box for $18.78

http://www.williamsgunsight.com/

:) Al

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

And anybody who think they are "objective" and totally unbiased is subjectively not all there, 'because they have not tried all bullets in all guns with all powders and all sabots. In that "sample space" of experience we get our relative comparisons. I am glad you are totally biased, because you have objective logic for every piece of equiptment on your gun and in your gun, and you know exactly why you shoot ACP small rifle primers and Nosler Partitions..... An every new person has gotta acquire that experience to make those relative comparisons. I enjoy your wisdom in all aspects of shooting/hunting.
Chap

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Guys thanks a lot for all this information.

I'm going to take Sabatloaders advice and go with the .452 Speer Gold Dots at 250gr. So according to Cayugad I need the black sabots. So are all black sabots appropriate? I'm sure there are different brands. Whichbrand would you all recommend? Is crushed rib sabot that Cayugad mentions is that a brand?

Also I notice you guys saying that you shoot 777-2f. What is the 2f or ff or whatever that means? Are there different levels of 777?

I will also be getting a volume measuring tool. Can you guys recommend a good one? I'm also going to need a tool to pour it into the volume tool. Can you recommend one of those?

Any thing else that I need to know?

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

I have an Omega and I use the Harvester Black Crushed rib, less costly, easier loading and accurate.
This many help.
Chap

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Hey Statjunk, I think you've made a good call. Gold Dot 250's are an excellent bullet. The two main sabot producers are MMP and Harvester. You should take a look at their web sites to get an idea of what they produce. MMP ishttp://www.mmpsabots.com/, and Harvester is http://www.harvesterbullets.com/sabots.htm. For the 45 caliber, 250 grain Gold Dots you need a 50 caliber sabot for 45 caliber bullets.
I've had the best luck with the Harvester short black high pressure sabots - their "50 Cal. Short Sabot for 45 Caliber 300 Gr. or Lighter Bullets", followed closely by their crush rib sabots. But every gun is different and different sabots can make a significant difference is accuracy and/or loading difficulty.

With respect to 2F vs. 3F powder, it has to do with the size of the powder granules, with 3F being a finer granule than 2F. The powder is the same formula regardless of granule size. The finer powder tends to ignite easire, burn faster, and develop slightly higer pressure. Some guns like 2F better. Some like 3F. Some don't seem to care. In Pyrodex, the Pyrodex P (pistol) is finer than Pyrodex RS (rifle/shotgun), and Pyrodex Select has the largest granule and they are more consistent in size than the others.

Just about any volume measure will do the job. I like this one. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=714741 You can usually find them - or a similar one -cheaper at Walmart. The best thing going for pouring from the powder canister to the measure is a cap like this (also usually available at Walmart - there are several styles and makers) http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=118743

Having fun yet???

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Thanks so much for posting the links that was a big help.

Accuracy with these muzzloaders is a complicated business. Well I going to order it all up tomorrow and pick up the 777 2f tomorrow. I guess I'll be testing Sabotloaders setup to see if there is any consistency across rifles.

Thanks to everyone that responded I was at wits end.

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

clearance pyrodex and a maxi ball mould will get you some cheap shooting. maybe try some round balls or buffalo ballets. save the fancy bullets for hunting.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

How old or new is your Omega? If it is the older variety -then you do want the Harvester short black or the MMP HPH-24 - both are black. I my self shoot the MMP but have the Harvester short blacks and eve ntheir long blacks.

If you Omega is a newer one with a tight TC bore you will the MMM-3p-EZ load or the Harvester "Crush Rib"

You will over time collect a bunch of small tools that make ML shooting easier....

Here is my method for making damp patches for the Omega... For some reason I do not get the famous "crud ring" in my Omega but these patches will take of any excessive fouling from T7



If I/we can help with any thing else give a shout...

mike

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Hey, great thread and great responses! I've picked up a few things from it!

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Sabotloader,

My Omega is three years old. The 245gr Powerbelts slide down the barrel super easy. The 250gr Shockwaves with the yellow sabots slide down relatively easy but are harder to push than the Power belts.

So which Sabot should I go with?

Also I use the one Cayugad suggests with the summer blend windshield washer fluid and 90% rubbing alcohol. They are likely on par right?

The volume measuring tool in the link above kind of looks fragile. Is it? Can someone supply another option so I can compare features?

Thanks for all the tips I'm going to order today if I can get some answers. Would love to get out to the range this weekend.

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Nothing fragile about it. There are several different styles out there - take your pick.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?t=82579&pageNum=0&tabI d=5&categoryId=19636&categoryString=10635***

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Semisane,

How many charges can this container hold?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=118743

I'd like a thing to bring to the range to load my muzzle loader over and over again.

Also I used to put the pellets in a ziploc bag what am I going to use to carry one shot charges in the field?

I have twice in my life fired a second shot to take a deer with a muzzloader and would not want to have to fool with measuring powder.

Sabatloader can you comment on the above?

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

The yellow "super glide" is a MMP HPH-3p-EZ load sabot... When I get to this part about recommneding sabot I always think of the phrase the "CHAP" uses but I can not think of a way to actually describe it - "snug but not to tight" - for me I usually judge by the presssureI have to put on the ram rod... If it only takes one hand to seat - it is to loose - if it takes both hands but is a stuggle it is to tight... For me it should take two with constant pressure down the barrel.

The Harvester "crush rib" MIGHT be just a tad tighter - but form the sounds of it I bet you need the HPH-24 or the regular Harvester either short black of regular length....

PM me with an address - I'll send you a few of each....

They really are pretty darn close problably... but it is another one of those things I am totally biased on, so weigh this inyour thoughts.... I prefer the windex with ammonia because it is somewhat of a solvent for oils and it also strips clean metal + it is a speedy evaporator. It virtually melts T7. In one shooting session i wil use one windex patch for several shots - it just keeps on working - a couple of weeks i shot a 12 shot session of T7 from my Knight used one windex - one dry patch at the beginning then the same windex patch the rest of the session- most of the time there is no need for a drying patch - if you get the correct dampness on the patch - when you experiment you will find out what I am talking about. When your done at the range it will take 3 windex patches both sides to come out with a relativly clean patch - then follow that with one slightly oiled patch - protects the barrel - till you really clean it...

This the one that i use - think I have two or 3 of them around...



It is really solid and I like it - for what ever that means....
http://www.grafs.com/product/200591

Get one of these also if you can...


They make this one which is solid and they also make one that spins - I like it better but this one will work.... The log shank allows the patch to slip in the bore easier plus it is recessed to allow loading on any type bullet.

If you shoot a lot and do not have a range rod - think about a Tipton - great rod has a rotating handle so you really do not need the rotating jag. Expensive but worth it in my mind.... They are carbon fiber - easy deasy on the bore and the crown of the barrel





http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/tipton/catalog.asp?family=deluxe-cleaning-rods

Better git off - I have used a lot of room and I am suppose to be taking care of my 11 mo grand daughter she is here in the house someplace... better go find her.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

That's not a container statjunk. It's a funnel top that screws on the top of your canister of powder so that you can pour from the canister into your powder measure. If you want to pre-measure loads at home and bring them to the range or in the fieldready to use, get some powder tubes fromLane Nebraska (one of our forum Members). They're the best thing out there.

He has them on e-bay ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170259489 427&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=007) but if you deal directly from him by e-mail from this forum you will save the e-bay cover charge. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/showprofile.aspx?memid=74400#

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Having trouble finding a website that has everything I need to save on the shipping.

Are these the bullets that I'm going to need?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=393253

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

Dats Dem - dey goot...

mike

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

I can't seem to find the HPH/24 sabots on midway. Can someone locate those for me?

Also Semisane, thanks for pointing me to LaneNebraska. I'm going to pick up about 10 of those.

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

Me neither does not look like MS carries MMP sabot.... you can call connie directly at MMP and order them..

Just posted this in another thread...

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Know of any website the does have them?

Thanks

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

statjunk

These are HPH-24's built for Nosler - I shoot these in my Omega - In fact this site might have everything you might be looking for...

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product.asp?productid=24440

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Thanks a lot sabot loader but they make you buy 3 packages. I went ahead and ordered from Connie. I also ordered from Midway to the the funnel that screws to the top of the bottle of powder, the volume measure tool and the box of Speer Gold Dots.

Thanks to all that assisted. I will report back as soon as I can get to the range.

Tom

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Save yourself the trouble of a second order - get 40 or 50. I guarantee if you get 10 you'll want more. With something like 40, you can load 10 with 80 grains of powder, 10 with 90, 10 with 100, and 10 with 110, and be good to go for a range experiment with whatever bullet you're trying.

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

Semisane

Just remember if you do that you can not leave the powder stored in that clear container for an extended period time... UV will deteriorate the powder... that's why powder comes in the opaque bottles or rupture cans - "no light"

RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
 

I hope some other folks will benefit from this post. Seriously a portion of this post should go up on the board as a sticky. I wish I had known this information 4 years ago or more. I could have 3 more muzzle loaders for what I have spent on ammo and pellets over the years.

You guys are great!

Tom